A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Myth of Dye Transfer Printing (1 Viewer)

[Will Krupp]

Soon I'll be obsolete.....

NEVER!!!

 

[Henry Gondorff]

If the base is yellowing, why is the silver soundtrack and its clear areas a perfect, neutral gray?

Why would a 35mm release print have Bell & Howell perfs?

 

[Will Krupp]

Why would a 35mm release print have Bell & Howell perfs?

Didn't the majority of release prints carry B&H prior to 1953?

 

[Jack Theakston]

Technicolor printed their runs on BH stock for registration purposes because the standard KS perfs were too tall and caused lateral misregistration. They later switched to DH perforations.

Most prints in the US were KS after the early '20s, when Kodak settled on BH for negative and KS for positive stock. Pathe, German and British stocks still used something closer to BH perfs for their printing until the '40s.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

Thank you, Jack. It's good to get accurate information.

I'm still trying to get more data on nitrate yellowing. I've spoken with two professional film archivists who have worked in the field since the 1970's and the phenomenon is new to them as well.

 

[ThadK]

Of course it's new to people who've actually worked with nitrate film for over forty years. This is a new lie.

 

[Robert Harris]

Thank you, Jack. It's good to get accurate information. I'm still trying to get more data on nitrate yellowing. I've spoken with two professional film archivists who have worked in the field since the 1970's and the phenomenon is new to them as well.

Three. Acetate, yes.

 

[bigshot]

Here is a study being done by Getty on yellowing and buckling of nitrate cel stock.
http://www.getty.edu/conservation/our_projects/science/plastics/plastics_component1.html

Another citation from Kodak that gives the reasons for the yellowing... escaping gasses.
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Storage/storage_nitrate.htm

"Cellulose nitrate decomposition is the villain. It shrinks, even to the point of becoming unusable. Furthermore, as the film breaks down, it gives off nitric oxide, nitrogen dioxide, and other gases that yellow the film base, yellow and soften gelatin, and oxidize the silver image."

A frame from Melies' "A Trip To The Moon" that exhibits severe yellowing. (This isn't just tinting.)
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See the vertical column of photos illustrating the six levels of nitrate deterioration:
https://www.nedcc.org/free-resources/preservation-leaflets/5.-photographs/5.1-a-short-guide-to-film-base-photographic-materials-identification,-care,-and-duplication

 

[Will Krupp]

Thanks for the information, Jack!!!!!

(I learned something new today!)

 

[Will Krupp]

Here is a study being done by Getty on yellowing and buckling of nitrate cel stock.
http://www.getty.edu/conservation/our_projects/science/plastics/plastics_component1.html

I'm sorry, I don't mean to question you (I'll never even come close to knowing what you know about animation) but isn't this a reference to the individually stored cels rather than the positive prints?

 

[bigshot]

I just added a few more references for you. The cel stock is the same basic material as the film base, just thinner. So oxidation happens faster with cels. But the progression of deterioration is basically the same as I understand it. Nitrate can change color a couple of times as it deteriorates. I've seen cels with just a little bit of "sweating" that have a greenish yellow tint. And ones with more deterioration turn an amber/orange color. Originally, I think the stock was quite clear and slightly cool tinted. It's a complicated issue for animation art restoration because the color of the paint on the back of the cel can be completely different than the color as it appears through the cel. Back when I was doing cel restoration full time, it was an issue I dealt with every time a pre acetate era cel came in for work.

 

[Robert Harris]

The difference between people trying to save a cell, and a reel or sequence of a film, and how we view it, may come down to the point that as film, layers tend to stick one to the next, once deterioration takes hold.While there have been herculean efforts to piece together bits and pieces of the silent (or later) nitrate cinema, one archivist can spend months working toward saving and single animation cell, matching colors and mending the base.Possibly because I prefer not to be around rotting nitrate, which about as unpleasant as vinegared acetate, the majority of the nitrate film that I've handled has been crystal clear.RAH

 

[Jack Theakston]

In all those cases, they are referring to nitrate prints that are starting to decompose. The SNOW WHITE print that was scanned is not decomposing. And again, it is important to note that the soundtrack area and leaders exhibit none of this artifact.

 

[bigshot]

Not much that can be done about nitrate when it starts to go. You can only hope to slow down the deterioration. I've even seen nitrate that becomes water soluble when it gets really bad. When that happens, you are sunk.

 

[bigshot]

I didn't see the soundtrack or leaders of the snow white print. I also don't know where that print came from or whether it was a release print or an NG print or whether the scan is representative. I can just say that that the single frame posted there doesn't look like any print of Snow White I've ever seen.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

The squiggly line to the left of the picture is the soundtrack. That's where the audio comes from when the print is projected.

 

[Robert Harris]

The squiggly line to the left of the picture is the soundtrack. That's where the audio comes from when the print is projected.

How rude...That is not just some "squiggly line." They call him MISTER Soundtrack!

 

[Dr Griffin]

Once again, I love it when you guys talk technical.

 

[ThadK]

I am thankful we have film experts like Mssrs. Harris, Furmanek, and Theakston to partake in the discussions here. To the average person, that squiggly line in a film frame scan is sure easy to miss!

 

[mark brown]

You mean the rorschach images?