A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Birth of a Nation (1915) -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Thomas T]

To say that "Films don't make people racist" is to say that films cannot change the people watching them. Of course films can make people racist. And films can help people overcome their racism.

I respectfully disagree. I've seen The Birth Of A Nation and it didn't make me racist. I've seen Triumph Of The Will and it didn't make me pro-Hitler. I've seen The Green Berets and it didn't make me pro the Viet Nam war. I've seen The Lost Weekend and it didn't stop me from drinking. I think films such as these most likely only confirm the beliefs that are already there in people. It doesn't make them change their innate values. I would hate to think that people let cinema do their thinking for them. I've been watching movies on a regular basis since I was 10 years old and I've rejected a film's values or morality (even in films I admire like Straw Dogs) as much as I've been in agreement with them (even in films I dislike like Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?).

 

[SeanSKA]

I respectfully disagree. I've seen The Birth Of A Nation and it didn't make me racist. I've seen Triumph Of The Will and it didn't make me pro-Hitler. I've seen The Green Berets and it didn't make me pro the Viet Nam war. I've seen The Lost Weekend and it didn't stop me from drinking. I think films such as these most likely only confirm the beliefs that are already there in people. It doesn't make them change their innate values. I would hate to think that people let cinema do their thinking for them. I've been watching movies on a regular basis since I was 10 years old and I've rejected a film's values or morality (even in films I admire like Straw Dogs) as much as I've been in agreement with them (even in films I dislike like Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?).

While I don't think a film could MAKE someone racist (or sexist or homophobic or Anti-Semitic ), I do think that culture can re-inforce beliefs that people may already have, or that are already prevelent in society. You can't tell me that the racial stereotypes common in Hollywood films of the 20s, 30s, and 40s didn't help in contributing to the widespread bigotry that existed in the "real world" at that time, or at the very least reflect back those attitudes.

 

[bigshot]

Films can only change that sort of belief if people are gullible enough to not realize that cinema is the art of manipulation. We don't need to be protected from evil ideas. We need to be protected from stupid people who can't parse the media. 100 years should be enough time to know that this isn't reality.

If the purpose of film is to correct me and make me think a certain way, then I don't need films any more. I'll move on to music or books where ideas can be free to stand and fall on their own merits and I don't have to be insulated from them.

 

[bigshot]

But when we talk about old movies, we should be aware of the time they were made in, and that includes the racism of the era.

I think it's more valuable for films to make us question our own beliefs than it is to validate ourselves by slamming on people who lived in a different time and place. I'd rather try to understand the past so I don't make the same mistakes. I prefer questioning to validation, and that is exactly why Birth of a Nation is not threat to me.

 

[Thomas T]

or at the very least reflect back those attitudes.

On that, we are in full agreement. Films of each era do reflect cultural and societal attitudes. On that basis alone, I think cinema is invaluable in showing us where our "head was at" during that time. TBOAN is a cinematic archival record of of a certain segment of American societal attitudes in the 1910s. Similarly, while I don't think a movie like Easy Rider holds up very well as cinema in 2018, it remains an invaluable archival record of the U.S. in 1969 and a culture that no longer exists. As a side note, in a recent conversation with a young 22 year old man, he asked me if Grease was an accurate representation of teenagers in the 1950s. I told I wouldn't be the one to ask as I didn't reach my teens until the 1960s!

 

[SeanSKA]

I think it's more valuable for films to make us question our own beliefs than it is to validate ourselves by slamming on people who lived in a different time and place. I'd rather try to understand the past so I don't make the same mistakes. I prefer questioning to validation, and that is exactly why Birth of a Nation is not threat to me.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, one of my memories of seeing "Birth of a Nation" was in a film class at NYU in the 80s. I noticed a Black female classmate in tears during the screening. These type of images may affect different people in different ways, especially based on their backgrounds and histories.

 

[SeanSKA]

Films can only change that sort of belief if people are gullible enough to not realize that cinema is the art of manipulation. We don't need to be protected from evil ideas. We need to be protected from stupid people who can't parse the media. 100 years should be enough time to know that this isn't reality.

If the purpose of film is to correct me and make me think a certain way, then I don't need films any more. I'll move on to music or books where ideas can be free to stand and fall on their own merits and I don't have to be insulated from them.

101 years was not enough time for many to discern reality from manipulation...But that's just my opinion

I don't know if a film (or any work of art) could truly change a belief, but I'm sure they can re-inforce them

 

[bigshot]

No one is forced to watch a movie. I get angry watching nihilistic slasher movies like Wrong Turn and Hostel, so I don't watch them. But I wouldn't try to tell other people that they shouldn't watch them because it might turn them into killers. The big difference between Birth of a Nation and Wrong Turn is that Birth is a brilliantly made film with many revolutionary techniques that affected every film that came after. I think the people who would be watching a century old silent film are probably capable of putting it in context. I don't think anyone has to worry about this film corrupting the world.

 

[SeanSKA]

No one is forced to watch a movie. I get angry watching nihilistic slasher movies like Wrong Turn and Hostel, so I don't watch them. But I wouldn't try to tell other people that they shouldn't watch them because it might turn them into killers. The big difference between Birth of a Nation and Wrong Turn is that Birth is a brilliantly made film with many revolutionary techniques that affected every film that came after. I think the people who would be watching a century old silent film are probably capable of putting it in context. I don't think anyone has to worry about this film corrupting the world.

Of course, one could say that this film had already corrupted the world, at the time it was made...
"Birth of a Nation" is a brilliant work of art, in service of an evil agenda. Both the artistic and cultural impact should be freely debated and discussed.

 

[LincolnSpector]

I respectfully disagree. I've seen The Birth Of A Nation and it didn't make me racist. I've seen Triumph Of The Will and it didn't make me pro-Hitler. I've seen The Green Berets and it didn't make me pro the Viet Nam war. I've seen The Lost Weekend and it didn't stop me from drinking. I think films such as these most likely only confirm the beliefs that are already there in people. It doesn't make them change their innate values. I would hate to think that people let cinema do their thinking for them. I've been watching movies on a regular basis since I was 10 years old and I've rejected a film's values or morality (even in films I admire like Straw Dogs) as much as I've been in agreement with them (even in films I dislike like Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?).

It's not binary. It's not that you see a movie and bing! you automatically agree with its message. But a well-made film can budge someone's view a bit. Remember that in 1914, the KKK had been dormant for decades. Soon after 1915, it swelled.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Perhaps, I'm missing something here. Now, we're arguing whether BOAN will influence people of today regarding racism? If so I don't agree with that assertion. However, back in 1915, when people as a whole were more ignorant and lack general knowledge about other races combined with living in a very segregated neighborhoods/societies, this film had a massive influence on people in a negative manner and had a direct link to the rebirth of the KKK. If you don't believe that then go ahead and ignore historians that have studied that era of American history.

 

[TravisR]

No one is forced to watch a movie. I get angry watching nihilistic slasher movies like Wrong Turn and Hostel, so I don't watch them. But I wouldn't try to tell other people that they shouldn't watch them because it might turn them into killers.

Yeah, I've seen a million horror movies and I've managed to not become Charles Manson. While I don't care for The Birth Of A Nation, I don't think that a person watching it today could suddenly become racist by watching it either. Just like if a guy started killing people after seeing Friday The 13th Part VII- The New Blood, there was something deeply wrong prior to their watching the movie.

 

[PMF]

I respectfully disagree. I've seen The Birth Of A Nation and it didn't make me racist. I've seen Triumph Of The Will and it didn't make me pro-Hitler. I've seen The Green Berets and it didn't make me pro the Viet Nam war. I've seen The Lost Weekend and it didn't stop me from drinking. I think films such as these most likely only confirm the beliefs that are already there in people. It doesn't make them change their innate values. I would hate to think that people let cinema do their thinking for them. I've been watching movies on a regular basis since I was 10 years old and I've rejected a film's values or morality (even in films I admire like Straw Dogs) as much as I've been in agreement with them (even in films I dislike like Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?).

Although I am not disputing this post from Thomas T, I do know of a single instance in my life where I went with a friend to see "Mississippi Burning" on its opening week. The guy was silent at the films end. We went across the street and into a pub. Still he remained silent. Clearly the film had an impact on him. And then, after a few sips from his mug and pint, he began to talk. Two major topics transpired. The first was his revealing to me that he had lived his life as a racist. Quite a moment for me, as he kept that one well under wraps. The second topic? That after seeing the film he felt a deep shame in himself and later stated that "Mississippi Burning" led him to reassess the ways in which he was raised.

 

[SeanSKA]

Perhaps, I'm missing something here. Now, we're arguing whether BOAN will influence people of today regarding racism? If so I don't agree with that assertion. However, back in 1915, when people as a whole were more ignorant and lack general knowledge about other races combined with living in a very segregated neighborhoods/societies, this film had a massive influence on people in a negative manner and had a direct link to the rebirth of the KKK. If you don't believe that then go ahead and ignore historians that have studied that era of American history.

I totally agree. I don't think the message of this film, or the impact it had on society at the time, should be off the table for discussion. I don't think anyone today would necessarily be influenced by it. However, as the story of my Black female classmate in tears at a showing 70 years later illustrates, these images still have power to upset and offend.

 

[bigshot]

I have free will to make of myself what I want. Movies can inspire and inform me, or disgust and repel me. But they don't make me who I am. I think you could make Adolph Hitler watch the Care Bears movie 100 times and it still wouldn't change anything.

I think it's a huge mistake to put limits on expressing ideas, even offensive ones. But then I'm an American. Not every country is as liberal about freedom of speech as the United States is.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I have free will to make of myself what I want. Movies can inspire and inform me, or disgust and repel me. But they don't make me who I am. I think you could make Adolph Hitler watch the Care Bears movie 100 times and it still wouldn't change anything.

I think it's a huge mistake to put limits on expressing ideas, even offensive ones. But then I'm an American. Not every country is as liberal about freedom of speech as the United States is.

Who is saying that here?

 

[SeanSKA]

I have free will to make of myself what I want. Movies can inspire and inform me, or disgust and repel me. But they don't make me who I am. I think you could make Adolph Hitler watch the Care Bears movie 100 times and it still wouldn't change anything.

I think it's a huge mistake to put limits on expressing ideas, even offensive ones. But then I'm an American. Not every country is as liberal about freedom of speech as the United States is.

I don't think anyone here has said anything about putting limits on expressing ideas, or censoring anything. But that doesn't mean that the ideas expressed cannot be criticized, or even condemned.