A Few Words About A few words about...™ Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Tony Bensley]

The "fact" is that it's a dated master that doesn't hold up to Blu-ray level scrutiny and it could definitely look better. The more recent shorts restorations on the German Donald Duck Christmas Blu-ray look very impressive and curiously don't suffer from the aggressive grain removal they like to employ on their animated features.

Re: The 1933 Wizard of Oz cartoon: are you aware of the Thunderbean restoration?

I don't dispute that THE GODDESS OF SPRING (1934) could look better, only that it does look better than the '01 DVD presentation. Unfortunately, I've never seen its Walt Disney Treasures incarnation, and thus, cannot make a judgement based upon that version! Its windowboxing on the Diamond Edition Blu-ray set is the one aspect that I find a bit annoying!

As for the Ted Eshbaugh WIZARD OF OZ (1933) Animated short, I was not aware of the Thunderbean Restoration until after I made my previous post. The still images from that effort are rather breathtaking, to say the least--light years ahead of the previous DVD versions that do fit my description within that post!

CHEERS!

 

[Lord Dalek]

Those curtains are meant to proceed the introduction to the short by Andrew Stanton. They are not part of the short if you watch it the normal way.

Still looks abysmal compared to the rest of the shorts on that disc (and all of the color ones have problems being from not the best elements).

 

[Will Krupp]

Another Disadvantage I Found On My MPC-HC Player, Is That I Was Unable To Skip Forward On This Short, Which Is Why This Is My Last Screenshot:
View attachment 30576

Hey Tony! Nice of you to post the screenshots, thanks. I don't still have the DVD version of SNOW WHITE but is that stair-stepping on the old DVD? Can you check to see if the GODDESS DVD transfer is actually progressive on the older disc?

 

[Konstantinos]

about Goddess of Spring:

more silly symphonies DVD early pressings had an old transfer and then there was a corrected disc which featured a newer but windowboxed transfer:

some more details:
http://home.mira.net/~kirseval/mss/
(look at disc 2)

i take it the 2nd one is on the bluray, right?

 

[Tony Bensley]

Thank you very much Konstantinos for posting your Version 2 Walt Disney Treasures DVD screenshot!

For comparison, here's the same shot from the Diamond Edition Blu-ray:

Bear in mind, this is a 720p Print Screen capture, as opposed to the proper 1080p resolution.

What do you think? Does this look better/worse than the MORE SILLY SYMPHONIES Version 2 DVD set?

I'm undecided, at present.

CHEERS!

EDIT: Upon closer examination, I've also noticed that, while the top of the windowboxed image is somewhat cropped in comparison to the older Transfer, the left side and bottom of the newer Transfer clearly have more imaging! The right side appears to be about the same to my eyes.

 

[Tony Bensley]

Since the MORE SILLY SYMPHONIES version 1 DVD screenshot from THE GODDESS OF SPRING (1934) posted by Konstantinos isn't displaying for some unknown reason, I'm posting one from the same older transfer that was also used on the SNOW WHITE AND THE SEVEN DWARFS 2001 Platinum Edition DVD set.

From The SNOW WHITE AND THE SEVEN DWARFS 2001 Platinum Edition And MORE SILLY SYMPHONIES (Version 1) DVDs:

Also, to answer Will Krupp's question from his previous post regarding stair stepping on the above '01 DVD version, I personally didn't detect any with my eyes. As to whether or not the video is progressive, I doubt that I can answer that definitively, only that I suspect it is. I will state that this particular version looks worse than what I remembered, although of course, the opinions of others may vary!

CHEERS!

 

[Lord Dalek]

The More Silly Symphonies transfer looks damn near identical to the Diamond Edition.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

A bit of a question for RAH. Given that times have moved on a little since this Blu's release, do you still think it was right to have removed all of the grain?

 

[Konstantinos]

A bit of a question for RAH. Given that times have moved on a little since this Blu's release, do you still think it was right to have removed all of the grain?

I would be very much interested in this reply indeed!
Although reading the review in the first post it seems this question has been answered already, but I'm curious to know if Mr. Harris who has given us such exceptional restorations, has changed opinion since 2009.

by the way, the grain removal question doesn't apply to only this bluray, but to almost all Disney animation blurays. It's the core of their restoration technique.

 

[Konstantinos]

What do you think? Does this look better/worse than the MORE SILLY SYMPHONIES Version 2 DVD set?

well, it looks the same at that size. And i guess they have preserved the grain too?

 

[Tony Bensley]

Tony Bensley said: ↑
What do you think? Does this look better/worse than the MORE SILLY SYMPHONIES Version 2 DVD set?

well, it looks the same at that size. And i guess they have preserved the grain too?

Having had a chance to compare both the Version 2 DVD and Diamond Edition Blu-ray versions of THE GODDESS OF SPRING (1934), I can see why those who already have the former might not want to bother upgrading to the latter. At least Disney didn't go back to the older transfer for the SNOW WHITE AND THE SEVEN DWARFS (1937) '09 Diamond Edition set!

By the way, I did dig up some stats for THE GODDESS OF SPRING '01 DVD Transfer:

Notes: While I don't see a specific stat indicating progressive or interlaced video, I believe the 29.970 fps is indicative of the former!

Oh, and don't let the Version 2 designation, as listed beside the "Format version" heading be a source of confusion! I have no idea why that is there?

CHEERS!

 

[Will Krupp]

Notes: While I don't see a specific stat indicating progressive or interlaced video, I believe the 29.970 fps is indicative of the former!

Heheh. 29.970 fps is actually indicative of the LATTER, meaning that the short was interlaced at a video frame rate on the old Snow White DVD, most likely the result of porting over an old laser master. If it was progressive film transfer it would have had 23.97 as a frame rate. The stair stepping that I was referring to in that shot you posted:

can, to my eyes, be seen most clearly in the deer's belly and the waterline right next to the bunny on the right. I was't sure if what I was seeing was on the disc itself or an artifact from re-sizing the snapshot.

Anyway, this discussion yesterday prompted me to pull out the Diamond Edition last night. I thought the shorts (all of which are in 1080/24p) looked pretty darn good but wow, I had forgotten what a freaking pain in the ass it is to even find them in that way too cutesy by half "Studio tour."

 

[Tony Bensley]

Heheh. 29.970 fps is actually indicative of the LATTER, meaning that the short was interlaced at a video frame rate on the old Snow White DVD, most likely the result of porting over an old laser master. If it was progressive film transfer it would have had 23.97 as a frame rate. The stair stepping that I was referring to in that shot you posted:

can, to my eyes, be seen most clearly in the deer's belly and the waterline right next to the bunny on the right. I was't sure if what I was seeing was on the disc itself or an artifact from re-sizing the snapshot.

Anyway, this discussion yesterday prompted me to pull out the Diamond Edition last night. I thought the shorts (all of which are in 1080/24p) looked pretty darn good but wow, I had forgotten what a freaking pain in the ass it is to even find them in that way too cutesy by half "Studio tour."

Hi Will!

Now that you mention it, I do see the stair stepping on the deer's belly. At least it doesn't look as pronounced as the sort that often appears on DVD to Blu-ray 480i port overs.

Finding the animated shorts is a pain in the ass, as you say. Try accessing it on Blu-ray Cyberlink crap bloatware, where shit keeps freezing, coupled with the stupid ass menus that don't have a back arrow! I had to restart the bloody bloatware several times yesterday--UGH! Leawo Blu-ray player's playlist feature turned out to be a real godsend in accessing the short subjects, especially with the disc defaulting to the Language setup menu, of all places!

CHEERS!

Tony

 

[Lord Dalek]

well, it looks the same at that size. And i guess they have preserved the grain too?

Only if you consider compression noise actual film grain.

 

[Konstantinos]

Only if you consider compression noise actual film grain.

really?
i didn't think they would use the same kind of "restoration" to a short.

 

[Lord Dalek]

really?
i didn't think they would use the same kind of "restoration" to a short.

The "grain" is unnatural. Therefore your point is moot.

 

[Konstantinos]

The "grain" is unnatural. Therefore your point is moot.

So, you're saying every other studio except disney that preserves the grain in old animation films (including Criterion, Ghibli, Universal etc.) is totally wrong in their decisions?

I still would be looking forward to Mr. Harris' reply though. And i would put it even further:
if you Mr. Harris had total freedom and control and made the decisions upon the restoration of an old animation classic, would you remove the grain or preserve it?
I'm just curious what you personally think.

 

[Will Krupp]

So, you're saying every other studio except disney that preserves the grain in old animation films (including Criterion, Ghibli, Universal etc.) is totally wrong in their decisions?

I THINK what he's actually saying is that this isn't a preservation of original film grain at all but a boatload of compression artifacts that just coincidentally LOOKS like film grain.

 

[dbear]

Rewatching The Goddess of Spring on the blu-ray, whatever grain that is intact does seem a little "clumpy" (for lack of a better technical term), even when compared to the relatively older transfers of the other Silly Symphonies on the disc. Tangentially, I found the very slight fringing on practically all the character outlines quite distracting. It's worth noting almost all the colour shorts on More Silly Symphonies were windowboxed and seemed to suffer from problematic colour timing (I feel there seems to be a odd over-emphasis on pinks and purples but can't find any review that agrees with me).

 

[Lord Dalek]

I THINK what he's actually saying is that this isn't a preservation of original film grain at all but a boatload of compression artifacts that just coincidentally LOOKS like film grain.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Its the same fake grain on Criterion dvds that DVDBeaver used to go gaga over before someone told Tooze it was MPEG artifacts and not inherent to the film itself.