bujaki
Senior HTF Member
I was somewhat amused by the title of the song "Going Coitin'," instead of "Going Courtin." A Freudian slip from Darthkarki?
Let me re-write the joke:
Excluding empty-stocked Amazon...David Norman has listed 7 Sellers for 7 Buyers. Coincidence?
Got my copy today and sampled both the CinemaScope and "flat" versions, and Darthkarki is correct: in the CinemaScope version of the barn raising dance, the dancers are slightly out of step with the music. Again, the picture and sound are perfectly synchronized -- it's the music and the dancers' steps that are a little bit off. On the flat version, the dancers are on the beat with the music.
You really have to listen very closely to notice this -- I didn't notice it at all upon first viewing, but was curious after reading this thread. And in any event, it is not an issue for me. It's such a joy to see this classic looking as good as it does.
The comparison can't stand as they're from different versions of the film, with different takes, different tracks, and obviously different sync for a different mix.
When the movie was made, their budget was cut and they had to use Ansco color!
Alrighty, here's the comparison with the Cinemascope version from the older 2000 DVD. Same version of the film, same take, same track, different sync:
Ok, I hear a difference. However, this is what I believe I am hearing in those barn dance sequences and the reason for the difference...in the 2000 DVD (old mix), it sounds as though I am only hearing the taps of perhaps just four people (two couples) even though there are 12 people (six couples) dancing in the scene. If anything, I think the foley sounds for this version are not realistic for what one would hear with 12 people slapping their boots and shoes on a stage. However, in the 2005 DVD (new mix), it sounds as though I am hearing MORE taps, as though it is actually coming from 12 people, three times as many couples. That version has a more "crowded" sound, more realistic in terms of what is actually happening during this sequence imo; a large group of people, half of whom have never met, never danced with each other before, certainly not portraying a well-rehearsed dance troupe, slamming their boots and shoes on a barn floor.
A broad musical analogy between the two versions might be like the difference between suddenly asking a roomful of strangers to sing the Star Spangled Banner (the 2005 DVD) vs what one would hear from a rehearsed quartet (the 2000 DVD). Even if there had been no rehearsal at all, it is logical that the quartet is going to sound tighter and more unified than a roomful of people.
If, as you have also pointed out, the foley sounds of the taps match the feet of 12 people as you see it visually in the 2005 DVD (new mix), then I would say the foley sounds are correct. To whatever extent they do not match as perfectly to the beat as what is heard in the 2000 DVD (old mix), I believe that is due to the fact that there are FEWER boots on the ground sounds in that older mix and, therefore, the 2005 DVD (new mix) version offers less likelihood of it sounding as though they were in perfect unison with each other much less with the beat of the soundtrack for just that short amount of screen time.
Then again, maybe I am not hearing what I think I am hearing. Do you or anyone else hear noticeably MORE boots and shoe tapping foley in that 2005 DVD (new mix) version than in the 2000 DVD (old mix) version? The right amount of foley for 12 people rather than for just 4 or so?
That would not be nearly the same issue with the Goin' Courtin' sequence, where there are, at most, three couples dancing at the same time and not for as long as there are 12 or more people dancing in the barn dance sequence.
btw, I think it is interesting that you noticed this, pointed it out and didn't give up. Seriously. But I do believe at this point that it is the difference between too few taps in the older mix foley, and therefore more likely to sound tighter and right on the beat, vs about the right number of them in the new mix foley even though adding more boot and shoe sounds would naturally make it sound less tight and less perfectly on the beat and unified. More like a "crowd", so to speak.
...it sounds as though I am only hearing the taps of perhaps just four people (two couples) even though there are 12 people (six couples) dancing in the scene. If anything, I think the foley sounds for this version are not realistic for what one would hear with 12 people slapping their boots and shoes on a stage. However, in the 2005 DVD (new mix), it sounds as though I am hearing MORE taps, as though it is actually coming from 12 people, three times as many couples. That version has a more "crowded" sound, more realistic in terms of what is actually happening during this sequence imo; a large group of people, half of whom have never met, never danced with each other before, certainly not portraying a well-rehearsed dance troupe, slamming their boots and shoes on a barn floor.
A broad musical analogy between the two versions might be like the difference between suddenly asking a roomful of strangers to sing the Star Spangled Banner (the 2005 DVD) vs what one would hear from a rehearsed quartet (the 2000 DVD). Even if there had been no rehearsal at all, it is logical that the quartet is going to sound tighter and more unified than a roomful of people.
...
Then again, maybe I am not hearing what I think I am hearing. Do you or anyone else hear noticeably MORE boots and shoe tapping foley in that 2005 DVD (new mix) version than in the 2000 DVD (old mix) version? The right amount of foley for 12 people rather than for just 4 or so?
It's actually the exact same foley track. All the sounds are exactly the same. As Robert pointed out, the difference you are hearing is the much better quality of the new mix, which does sound a lot louder and more distinct. That is a good thing, but it's completely unrelated to the timing of the foley in relation to the music.
It's actually the exact same foley track. All the sounds are exactly the same. As Robert pointed out, the difference you are hearing is the much better quality of the new mix, which does sound a lot louder and more distinct. That is a good thing, but it's completely unrelated to the timing of the foley in relation to the music.
There is just so much more audible foley sound for the sequence in the 2005 DVD (new mix) than in the 2000 DVD (old mix), that we are now hearing more boots and shoes hitting the floor, some of which are only meant to convey the ambiance of a large group of dancers just getting started.
Otherwise, how can the foley match what we see the feet doing when we can clearly see the dancers' feet are matching the beat of the music yet argue that the foley is somehow not matching the beat of the music as well? You know; A = B. B = C. Therefore, A = C, no? I'm not trying to be cute about it. I'm just saying we cannot then arrive at the conclusion that A does not = C in this case.
The question I have is would you have noticed it if it wasn't pointed out in this thread?I hear exactly what Karl is talking about. The foley effects in the Cinemascope version sound like they are a fraction of a second behind the music beat. Just a fraction. But enough to make it sound "off." Based on the video, the mudisc is right but the fx of the dancers' sounds are off just a hair.
Not a dealbreaker for me, but it's there.
Even if the original elements were in rough shape, I would think that would be an easy fix in this non-linear age.
As I sampled the disc last night (looking forward to a full viewing sometime VERY soon), I thought the music in the Cinemascope version really jumped off my system. it sounded beautiful.
It was very interesting to watch the different takes in some of the songs by sampling the flat version. Fun!
The question I have is would you have noticed it if it wasn't pointed out in this thread?
The question I have is would you have noticed it if it wasn't pointed out in this thread?
My guess is that most of us wouldn't even notice it. I know once I receive my copy and I pop the disc in, I'll be too wrapped up in the film to notice foley effects.Well, the foley track on the Cinemascope version DOES kinda make the dancers sound more like a bunch of Dutch clog dancers.
But the direct answer to your question is...I'm not sure. Maybe not. I wish I had had a chance to find out. But I can't.
The question I have is would you have noticed it if it wasn't pointed out in this thread?