A Few Words About A few words about...™ Projector setup (1 Viewer)

[Robin9]

My Epson TW8300 serves me very well -- I don't know what the model is called in Australia, but I'm very pleased with its result when paired with my Oppo 4k player.
But I have a suggestion which I think should be met with a great response from fellow senior Forum members. I think it is incumbent on the HTF administration to do a sponsorship deal with JVC which will grant (in exchange for great word of mouth publicity etc) a free top-range 4k projector for all senior forum members such as myself. Because I am in Australia, I would be prepared to pay cost of shipping, and even pay for a voltage converter if one is necessary. If total sponsorship funds can't be found, then a levy should be placed upon more junior members, who should be more than happy to pay, given that they will benefit from our considerably more informed postings and advice.
This is, in the words of Dr Swift, a modest proposal, which will provide a great benefit for all.

I think this needs a or some people will think you're being serious.

 

[Mark-P]

I think this needs a or some people will think you're being serious.

This kind of subtle, dry wit is completely appropriate in a RAH trademarked thread.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

My Epson TW8300 serves me very well -- I don't know what the model is called in Australia, but I'm very pleased with its result when paired with my Oppo 4k player.
But I have a suggestion which I think should be met with a great response from fellow senior Forum members. I think it is incumbent on the HTF administration to do a sponsorship deal with JVC which will grant (in exchange for great word of mouth publicity etc) a free top-range 4k projector for all senior forum members such as myself. Because I am in Australia, I would be prepared to pay cost of shipping, and even pay for a voltage converter if one is necessary. If total sponsorship funds can't be found, then a levy should be placed upon more junior members, who should be more than happy to pay, given that they will benefit from our considerably more informed postings and advice.
This is, in the words of Dr Swift, a modest proposal, which will provide a great benefit for all.

I think this needs a or some people will think you're being serious.

But this way some of us can daydream a little more vividly... in 4K/HDR glory and all...

_Man_

 

[RichMurphy]

For the record, I have no accommodation arrangement with JVC. Some manufacturers are pleased to place gear, at a nice discount, with certain folks that might be helpful to them. I did not find that to be the case with JVC.

Then I also propose that a levy be placed on all HTF members, but used instead to help Robert Harris pay for his new JVC projector, given all the service he has provided to us (and for that matter, to the history of motion pictures in general).

 

[Jeff Cooper]

@Jeff Cooper, curious what 4K player you're using w/ that issue mating w/ your Epson 4050 re: "projector" display setting. Doesn't sound right... though I haven't moved upto a 4K FP yet, but am considering the Epson 5050UB as transitional FP for next few years or so -- still just using a sub-$1K, 1080p BenQ w/ Sony X700 player myself (though I do also have a Panny UB420 still new-in-box)...

_Man_

I have the Epson model before yours Jeff and don't have any of the problems you complain of.
I would have a close look at your player.When I got the Panny 420,it took image quality to another level.

Good to hear that the issue may be with the player. I have the Sony UBP-X700. Pretty much bottom of the line when it comes to players. The signal from that is going through a Denon AVR-S750H receiver before getting to the projector. I am planning on getting a Playstation 5 when they come out, so hopefully that will be a significant upgrade from the Sony player. (Although that's just another Sony player, so maybe not....)

 

[Robert Harris]

Then I also propose that a levy be placed on all HTF members, but used instead to help Robert Harris pay for his new JVC projector, given all the service he has provided to us (and for that matter, to the history of motion pictures in general).

The thought, even in jest, is appreciated. But I’d prefer to get aid for a kickstarter, or other project should the time come. Every nickel will help.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

The thought, even in jest, is appreciated. But I’d prefer to get aid for a kickstarter, or other project should the time come. Every nickel will help.

Definitely very glad to contribute toward a kickstarter of yours (and I'm sure plenty others feel the same)! I shall start putting aside dem nickels now...

_Man_

 

[RichMurphy]

The thought, even in jest, is appreciated. But I’d prefer to get aid for a kickstarter, or other project should the time come. Every nickel will help.

You got it. Just let us know when and where, and I'll chip in. (and that's NOT in jest)

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Good to hear that the issue may be with the player. I have the Sony UBP-X700. Pretty much bottom of the line when it comes to players. The signal from that is going through a Denon AVR-S750H receiver before getting to the projector. I am planning on getting a Playstation 5 when they come out, so hopefully that will be a significant upgrade from the Sony player. (Although that's just another Sony player, so maybe not....)

That is odd indeed. I haven't experienced any such issue -- and I too have been using the "projector" setting, but my X700 is always downconverting to 1080p and SDR for my FP (well, except when playing back regular BDs of course).

I wonder what settings, if any, you use to downconvert to SDR. Do you just use default settings (eg. under Display Options that's only accessible during playback)? I have my Display Options adjusted in combo w/ the basic HDR->SDR slider to yield moderately flatter tonality in the upper tones region (for a bit more highlight detail extraction than regular BD counterparts) while essentially preserving mid tones and below (to look same as BD counterparts) as mated to my BenQ. It's a tad of nuisance though to have to switch (the Display Options settings) back and forth between 4K HDR discs and regular SDR content, so we still also use our Oppo 103 in the same system for most BD duties...

Also, wonder if some of your other settings are out of whack to yield that result.

_Man_

 

[sbjork]

For the record, I have no accommodation arrangement with JVC. Some manufacturers are pleased to place gear, at a nice discount, with certain folks that might be helpful to them. I did not find that to be the case with JVC.

My dealer actually gave me 10% off on my RS2000, and I felt like a VIP. JVC is generally MSRP.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

I wonder what settings, if any, you use to downconvert to SDR. Do you just use default settings (eg. under Display Options that's only accessible during playback)? I have my Display Options adjusted in combo w/ the basic HDR->SDR slider to yield moderately flatter tonality in the upper tones region (for a bit more highlight detail extraction than regular BD counterparts) while essentially preserving mid tones and below (to look same as BD counterparts) as mated to my BenQ.

_Man_

Woah. Well it's embarrassing to admit this, but I had absolutely no idea there were different display options available from the player while the disc was in playback. All my player side display adjustments were done from the main settings menu while there was no playback going on. I'll definitely have to dive into this.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Woah. Well it's embarrassing to admit this, but I had absolutely no idea there were different display options available from the player while the disc was in playback. All my player side display adjustments were done from the main settings menu while there was no playback going on. I'll definitely have to dive into this.

Yeah, no idea why Sony decided to "hide" those Display Options settings in that manner given how important (and regularly needed) they can be, especially if one wants/needs to use them to help fine-tune the otherwise rather too coarsely adjustable HDR-SDR conversion.

I used the Display Options to set up a separate Custom viewing mode profile w/ settings I use for the HDR->SDR conversion -- used the moderately aggressive setting on the slider (think it's something like 4 out of 5) to yield moderate highlight retrieval and then adjust the Custom profile to work well w/ that (using DR-challenging scenes from several reference quality 4K discs and their BD counterparts, including MI: Fallout and Braveheart as well as the problematic Grease disc, for reference). The Custom profile I ended up w/ basically applies a rough S tone curve to the otherwise too flat-looking HDR->SDR converted image (from the moderately aggressive slider setting).

When watching SDR content, I switch back to the default Direct mode profile.

Hope that helps...

_Man_

 

[Michael Osadciw]

@Jeff Cooper, a calibrator that serves your area should be able to set up the projector correctly. Make sure your firmware is up to date (v1.03 is current on 5050, I'm not sure about the 4050).

When setting up HDR on a projector, it's important to take into account the distance from the projector to the screen, the screen size, as well as the screen material being used, and ultimately the horsepower of the projector. All of this is factored in when the calibrator/user accepts what the average scene brightness should be in this system by setting the controls for contrast and tone mapping. Ultimately, there will be some sacrifices due to judgement calls based on the room's entire video ecosystem, but the sacrifice should never be to disable HDR entirely. I shake my head in disbelief when I read forum users disabling their HDR and worse, watching it in low lamp mode. Only DLP projectors have poor HDR implementation and aren't ready for HDR prime time.

A few tips about Epson, for Epson owners who may be reading here. There is no HDR auto HD-SDR to UHD-HDR, so you'll need two separate image memories that you'll need to manually recall, despite the automatic HDR10 signal detection in the signal input. Let's use 110" diagonal (8 foot) non-perf/weave 16:9 screen unity gain screen as our reference, at a projected distance of 16 feet. "Natural" works well in most room environments for HD-SDR (after calibration). For UHD you have a choice between two image modes: Bright Cinema or Digital Cinema. There are substantial differences between these; light output and colour gamut. Digital Cinema is half the light output of Bright Cinema, but does about 97% of D65-P3. You'll need to be willing to accept a dim picture regardless of where you decide to leave the HDR10 tone mapping control. If you chose Bright Cinema (my preferred setting to calibrate on Epson), know that you'll be getting a impactful and bright HDR image, but the colour gamut is about 78% of D65-P3. That is the preferred trade off.

Please note that I'm simplifying this last piece of information here as best as I can. Setting the HDR10 tone mapping is important depending on your video ecosystem/reference light output (not peak); a setting of 8 is good for most systems. The tone mapping becomes gradual after input signal code values that correspond with light beyond 1000 nits. A setting of 7 and below tone maps earlier meaning that the range between steps of visible light reduces starting at lower code values. This also brightens up mid tones and may be considered for systems that struggle for additional light (eg. screen is too big, or screen material is too black, or projector is placed too far back). A setting of 9 and above increases the range of visible light between code values but appears darker because there's simply not enough horsepower in this projector for an 8 foot screen (gone are the days of 72" and 84" screens!) This setting preserves a wider range of highlights that MAY appear briefly with some video content (not worth it in my opinion since all viewing will be darker). Remember, just because HDR content metadata says it was mastered on a 1000 nit monitor doesn't mean it actually has highlights all of the way up to 1000 nits (likewise for 2000 nit and 4000 nit displays). So in essence, you may be trying to preserve nothing while experiencing dark viewing.

You cannot get both bright HDR and WCG with Epson (and they're priced appropriately because of that). If you want both bright HDR and WCG, the JVC is where you need to be. And the JVC setup has its own set of compromises that work very, very well when considering the full video ecosystem, each different from room to room. A set up in one home will be entirely different than another making any online settings completely null and void of accuracy. For those considering JVC, consider this: NX5/RS1000 is the slightly brighter projector that can only do about 90% of D65-P3. The NX7/RS2000 is slightly dimmer but has the better black level, and can do about 98% of D65-P3. The NX9/RS3000 has superior optics for 4k and has the refinement in image expected from a top-tier JVC projector. If you can afford it, do it. All three projectors has great tone mapping options and calibration controls, and several hours with precision instruments need to be used for accurate setup. JVC also conveniently select between the two calibrated picture memories automatically so all the user needs to do is turn on the projector and enjoy.

I used to be a DVD/Blu-ray reviewer here at HTF from about 2003-2011. I've been calibrating for over 20 years in Ontario, Canada, so if you're in Southern Ontario and would like to contact me about you projector purchase and video calibration, send me a private message and let's have a chat. For everyone else, reach out to your local calibrators and get the most out of your video displays!

 

[AnthonyClarke]

I would also be prepared to contribute, in a modest way, towards an RH kickstarter. I would hate anyone, especially RH, to think my slight exercise of wit was in anyway directed to a suggestion that he was benefiting from any sort of sponsorship largesse. Anyway, I think really I was trying to cheer myself up. I suffered on Monday night the untimely death, in my arms, of our beloved 5 year old Jack Russell Calypso, who had a heart attack or stroke while undertaking her favourite task -- eating. We are deeply grieving -- I still cry when I think about it too much -- and will have to get a replacement the moment we can ... though little puppies now are as rare, and as expensive, as a fine projector, thanks to this Covid crap.

 

[John Lloyd]

What about an anamorphic lens for the JVC projector? I just ordered an NX7 and Panamorph DCR lens. The retail price of that combination is roughly same as the NX9 and gives me widescreen movies using the full resolution of the projector.

 

[Robert Harris]

I would also be prepared to contribute, in a modest way, towards an RH kickstarter. I would hate anyone, especially RH, to think my slight exercise of wit was in anyway directed to a suggestion that he was benefiting from any sort of sponsorship largesse. Anyway, I think really I was trying to cheer myself up. I suffered on Monday night the untimely death, in my arms, of our beloved 5 year old Jack Russell Calypso, who had a heart attack or stroke while undertaking her favourite task -- eating. We are deeply grieving -- I still cry when I think about it too much -- and will have to get a replacement the moment we can ... though little puppies now are as rare, and as expensive, as a fine projector, thanks to this Covid crap.

Our canine friends are irreplaceable family members. My condolences

 

[PMF]

And how about that Panasonic PT-RQ50K Projector? Based upon my calculations; with an MSRP of $249,999.00; any such attempted attainment on my part should take me but a mere 22 years to achieve.

Oh yes, indeed, this JVC NX9 sounds like a true beauty that would be well worth every penny, dollar and dime.

Congratulations to RAH; thanks for sharing; and may you have many an enjoyable and inspired screenings ahead.

 

[Robert Harris]

I can never say enough positive things about working with a top calibration artist. I thought Mr. Miller was satisfied.

Yesterday evening he texted and asked that I warm up the projector and stand by. Ten minutes later, he had me to go to the menu, and check a setting, specific to HDR, color settings and brightness. We made a single adjustment that he felt would be beneficial to my setup, brought brightness up a single point, and color range was even better.

So I’ll repeat. Unless you really know what you’re doing, like a few members here, please use an accredited calibrator.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Hope that helps...

_Man_

Had an interesting time playing with the display settings while playback was going. So while watching a UHD, the in playback settings are BNR, MNR, FNR, all which I left off as I didn't want any type of noise reduction. Then the remaining options were Color, Hue, Brightness and Contrast. I left color and hue alone as I had calibrated those on the projector side.

I fired up the live Action Aladdin movie as my test as the "Whole New World" scene was always very dark and hard to really see anything. The brightness and contrast settings both had a range of -6 to 6 and were both set at 0 as a default. Pumping both of these up to 6 made a huge difference in this scene. Suddenly I could see everything great and it looked fantastic. However this ended up being short lived as I then switched to the "Prince Ali" scene and absolutely everything was blown out and white crushed. I paused on a blown out scene and lowered both brightness and contrast to the point to where no detail was getting lost from white crush. The end result was a contrast of 0 and a brightness of 3. So the end result was no change in contrast and a brightness going from 0-3. It was indeed an improvement, but not perfect.

Then I switched to a particular problematic UHD, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Honestly I have no idea how this one hasn't been recalled. The white level on this disc is completely blown out under normal circumstances and my brightness increase just made it worse in this case. The scene at the beginning at the quiddich world cup, when the minister is starting the match, his face is just a pure white blob with zero detail. I experimented and I had to take the brightness down all the way to -6 to be able to make out his face. Just ridiculous. The blu ray included in the same set has none of these issues and looks great.

Finally I put in another problematic disc, this time the opposite of Harry Potter, Terminator Dark Fate. On this disc the entire last battle scene and the mid-way scene where they're sitting on top of the train were all basically a black screen. With my new brightness setting of 3 I could at least make out what was happening, although it was still extremely dark.

So in summary, it was definitely an improvement, so thank you very much for bringing the in-play settings to my attention. It's still not really great, but it tells me the issue can be fixed at the player level vs. the projector.

A few tips about Epson, for Epson owners who may be reading here. There is no HDR auto HD-SDR to UHD-HDR, so you'll need two separate image memories that you'll need to manually recall, despite the automatic HDR10 signal detection in the signal input. Let's use 110" diagonal (8 foot) non-perf/weave 16:9 screen unity gain screen as our reference, at a projected distance of 16 feet. "Natural" works well in most room environments for HD-SDR (after calibration). For UHD you have a choice between two image modes: Bright Cinema or Digital Cinema. There are substantial differences between these; light output and colour gamut. Digital Cinema is half the light output of Bright Cinema, but does about 97% of D65-P3. You'll need to be willing to accept a dim picture regardless of where you decide to leave the HDR10 tone mapping control. If you chose Bright Cinema (my preferred setting to calibrate on Epson), know that you'll be getting a impactful and bright HDR image, but the colour gamut is about 78% of D65-P3. That is the preferred trade off.

I have two profiles set up for HDR viewing, one for Digital Cinema, and one for Natural. For all the settings in the projector I do not have the knowledge or equipment to set on my own, I followed the settings in this article: https://www.projectorreviews.com/ep...le-home-theater-projector-review-performance/
The one thing I did deviate from in those settings is I left the auto-iris set to off, and I found it very distracting when gaming seeing the brightness change when it shouldn't.

For everything else I used the Digital Video Essentials HD Basics calibration blu ray as the best I could do, since I'm not aware of any UHD equivalent tool yet.

So I’ll repeat. Unless you really know what you’re doing, like a few members here, please use an accredited calibrator.

And this brings me to a question I have been wondering. What does 'accredited' entail exactly? How do I know if a local calibrator actually really, really knows what he is doing, vs. just an enthusiast passing himself off as a professional? I know back in the day it was an ISF thing, is that still the case now? Is there some kind of 'registry' of calibration professionals? And finally, how exactly would I go about finding a local calibrator? Who would I contact to find that information?

Thanks to all who have helped and offered suggestions in my journey here!

 

[John Sparks]

One of the things you should know about an ISFer is that the person should have calibrated a projector like the one you want done. I learned the hard way on that one.