A Few Words About A few words about...™ Peter Pan -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Robert Harris]

FYI (and ICYMI) - I recently had the chance to interview Kathryn Beaumont, voice of Wendy (plus Disney historian Mindy Johnson) about Peter Pan. Click the link or image to check it out:

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...thryn-beaumont-disneys-peter-pan-1953.357523/

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Wonderful interview!

 

[MatthewA]

Indeed. I've been really impressed with the caliber of HTF interview subjects of late.

 

[telzall]

You have to largely go back to Laserdisc and even for a good number of them the earlier pre-special edition Laserdiscs to attain a home video release that even begins to look like the original feature. The process of revisionism with Disney titles largely began in 1994 with the new version of Snow White.
I started collecting these a few years ago even though I'm not a Disney fan at all-but found it infuriating how this process continues to this day with little to no public knowledge. With the most current releases they don't even look like themselves any longer. I wanted to cry when seeing what Pinocchio looked like on Blu-ray-particularly with those awful colored pattern masking bars applied.
And if you get some of these there are nice otherwise unavailable oddities such as the rare Academy ratio version of Lady and the Tramp. (The later 1.33 transfer is a fullscreen rendering of the Scope version and not the separate 1.33 version.)
For Peter Pan it seems you have three choices: The early 90's CAV Laserdisc which has a nice warm color appearance and good detail, the later 90's remastered CAV Laserdisc which has a colder appearance but is a stronger transfer technically and the 1999 Gold Collection DVD which is a port of that last Laserdisc master. All are in stereo. From the 2002 DVD onward the film has been subjected to several new transfers that have varying degrees of accuracy.
I made a video about the Disney discs I have after some people on another group asked me to do so. If you're curious about a better Peter Pan on video, I suggest the 1991 CAV release as it has color different to the other releases and has a nice natural feel to it. (EDIT: the embed didn't work so the timestamp is wrong. Skip to 14:09 for the two Peter Pan releases.)

Aside from the Laserdisc release of Peter Pan which DVD and/or blu ray would you, or anybody, recommend, based on faithfulness to original, intended, color palette?

 

[Robert Harris]

In deference to the folks at Disney, the concept of re-imagining their classic animated features, comes down to the old concept of art vs commerce.

Their film elements are fully protected, and referenced in original form.

The new versions cater toward the youth market, and not those seeking the appearance of original cinema.

I see no problem with that, as they need to make three year-olds happy, presumably as opposed to educating them about the look and textures of ancient cinema.

What might be nice, would be an “archival” collection, for those who would like to revel in original dye transfer print grain structure, as well as original color and details.

One might think of it as an additional skew, and possibly a higher price point.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

In deference to the folks at Disney, the concept of re-imagining their classic animated features, comes down to the old concept of art vs commerce.

Their film elements are fully protected, and referenced in original form.

The new versions cater toward the youth market, and not those seeking the appearance of original cinema.

I see no problem with that, as they need to make three year-olds happy, presumably as opposed to educating them about the look and textures of ancient cinema.

What might be nice, would be an “archival” collection, for those who would like to revel in original dye transfer print grain structure, as well as original color and details.

One might think of it as an additional skew, and possibly a higher price point.

Do you mean to suggest that Disney use the "Walt Disney Signature Collection" sobriquet to actually MEAN something, much like the DVD Treasures tins did?

Shocking, I say; SHOCKING!

 

[Robert Harris]

Do you mean to suggest that Disney use the "Walt Disney Signature Collection" sobriquet to actually MEAN something, much like the DVD Treasures tins did?

Shocking, I say; SHOCKING!

I’d pay $50 per film, with no extras.

And before anyone asks, yes, the Disney has the archival/asset protection staff to do this perfectly.

 

[MatthewA]

Thanks a lot. Now you've inspired me to buy an external upconverter so I can actually watch laserdiscs on my 1080p Epson projector without having everything squashed to 16x9. At least it's better than the cropping we were subjected to in the 1980s theatrical reissues.

I’d pay $50 per film, with no extras.

Those stately, extra-laden, "restored and remastered" CAV laserdisc box sets of Snow White, Pinocchio, Fantasia, Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland, and the double feature of Saludos Amigos and The Three Caballeros were about $99.99 new. And for the most coveted titles, the lack of copy protection meant a year's lag between VHS and laserdisc.

The extra-less CLV equivalents were about $39.99 new, while a a two-disc CLV release was $49.99. And their prices were still less than Fox's. That is, if you were lucky enough to live where they sold and rented them.

Will the inevitable 4k releases be plagued with the same smear-storation and oversaturation mentality? I hope not. Hopefully they will get right what the current wave of releases got wrong, and hopefully it won't be limited only to the most popular titles, the 1% of the Disney catalog.

If you want to talk about a wide variance of colors on the same film, compare the opening of the 1980s Bambi video to the THX-approved 1990s one. By that time it's painfully obvious that they've started freeze-framing the titles, and why the RKO logo has never been restored to this particular film, nor even a Buena Vista from the 1950s/1960s, is beyond me.

 

[richardburton84]

The RKO logo for Bambi was present on the 1997 laserdisc (why it wasn’t on the concurrent VHS, I have no idea) and I’m pretty sure the logo was reinserted into the film for last year’s Signature Edition.

 

[telzall]

In deference to the folks at Disney, the concept of re-imagining their classic animated features, comes down to the old concept of art vs commerce.

Their film elements are fully protected, and referenced in original form.

The new versions cater toward the youth market, and not those seeking the appearance of original cinema.

I see no problem with that, as they need to make three year-olds happy, presumably as opposed to educating them about the look and textures of ancient cinema.

What might be nice, would be an “archival” collection, for those who would like to revel in original dye transfer print grain structure, as well as original color and details.

One might think of it as an additional skew, and possibly a higher price point.

I agree and respect your ideas!! I resent the term "ancient cinema". I don't deny it; but, I do resent it. Peter Pan and Sleeping Beauty were my first Disney theater experiences as a boy, so "ancient" is hard to swallow. Especially, with my tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Slightly more seriously: I do lament history losing again to the "younger generation". The explicit and implicit reduction of history's value is a pet peeve of mine. I would definitely pay, again, for transfers that respect/replicate the original look.

 

[Trancas]

What might be nice, would be an “archival” collection, for those who would like to revel in original dye transfer print grain structure, as well as original color and details.

One might think of it as an additional skew, and possibly a higher price point.

That's a terrific idea.......Walt Disney Archive for the Adult Collector. Straight from the original negatives.....only the dirt, scratches and age-related issues have been addressed and removed.....ALL the original crisp line-work, subtle cel coloring, soft gradations of the gouache or watercolor backgrounds AND the classic film grain have been preserved! A once in a lifetime viewing experience......because these treasured films are now available for the first time in 4K UHD (with a newly remastered blu-ray included)!

 

[MatthewA]

The RKO logo for Bambi was present on the 1997 laserdisc (why it wasn’t on the concurrent VHS, I have no idea) and I’m pretty sure the logo was reinserted into the film for last year’s Signature Edition.

It wasn't on the DVD or the original Blu-ray.

 

[telzall]

That's a terrific idea.......Walt Disney Archive for the Adult Collector. Straight from the original negatives.....only the dirt, scratches and age-related issues have been addressed and removed.....ALL the original crisp line-work, subtle cel coloring, soft gradations of the gouache or watercolor backgrounds AND the classic film grain have been preserved! A once in a lifetime viewing experience......because these treasured films are now available for the first time in 4K UHD (with a newly remastered blu-ray included)!

I'm sold and who could resist?

 

[MatthewA]

I broke down and bought the original CAV laserdisc from eBay and did an A/B comparison, which is not easy to do on my receiver (Sony STR-DH820) because of the lag time of switching between sources. I watched the first few minutes of the film. Even in Squeeze-O-Vision, the laserdisc wins on color even though the Blu-ray is sharper, and I'm projecting these onto a 136" constant image height screen, so every flaw, digital or analog, will show up. The LD doesn't have the same "airless" feeling, for lack of a better word, as the Blu-ray, since it hasn't been de-grained like almost every little piece of animation coming out of the studio since around 1994/1995 or so.

As I recall them, the very first wave of Disney home video transfers (1978-1982, which includes the MCA Discovision deal) were way too yellow and full of motion blur artifacts (film-to-video transfer machines with 3:2 pulldown to eliminate ghosting frames didn't come out until around 1982 or thereabout, IIRC). The overall transfer quality improved dramatically in the later part of the decade. The original c. 1980 film-to-video transfer of Bedknobs and Broomsticks was all that was on laserdisc before the 25th anniversary restoration/reconstruction of the original cut, and the transfer was so bad (and time-compressed from 117 to 112 minutes, and though the VHS of that same initial transfer had the Buena Vista logo, the laserdisc didn't) that I honestly preferred to watch it on later VHS releases or The Disney Channel cablecasts which used later, clearer, more colorful remasters. Prior to 1984's release of 1973's Robin Hood (even that deserved a better Blu-ray than it got), the only animated features from "The Canon" that got released during this period stateside were Alice in Wonderland, Dumbo, The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, and a VHS-only Fun and Fancy Free that still made a lie to the Eisner-sans-Katzenberg-and-Wells-era claim that the 50th anniversary reissue was "for the first time ever." Even though both the whole and the sum parts had been made available on tape, and the two components were separately on laserdisc before that*. Actual short cartoons, as opposed to the sum parts of 1940s package features, were another matter. Those got plenty of laserdisc exposure in the 1980s, yet after that Mickey Mouse box set in the 1990s, not much until Walt Disney Treasures filled in the gap on DVD while Warner Bros. and MGM cartoons got plenty of pre-DVD LD releases. The less said about The Spirit of Mickey, the better.

After having gotten to see the "unrestored" 2001: A Space Odyssey in 70mm at the Castro in San Francisco, I think it's time the Disney classics got that kind of treatment. I would love to see a comprehensive 4k UHD series of the entire animated canon, even the flops, released the way Trancas suggested. Uncut, unmolested, with only the artifacts of age removed, and with non-fluff extras; i.e., what the Blu-rays should have been all along. Younger fans who grew up with the artificially sweetened over-digitized versions will likely be in for a shock, but they'll come around. Older ones who know the difference won't be disappointed. Whenever I watch that Cinderella comparison, my eyes always snap back to the Technicolor print scan where the colors seem more naturalistic, nuanced, and lifelike and less Crayola-ish. Even the darkness of the scene makes sense since it's night time and it shouldn't be anywhere near as bright as the Blu-ray makes it look; where's the light coming from? Hopefully the cinematic rescue aid society that keeps these films from being lost to time will listen and finally come through.

And they need to stop using the alleged ignorance of children (more like ignorant or careless adults projecting those qualities onto a straw figure of their own creation) as an excuse to cut every corner.

*The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad was another matter; there, they already broke them up from the get-go into two separate releases paired from other cartoons, the full version with Bing Crosby and Basil Rathbone's wraparounds remaining unreleased until an early 1990s laserdisc release.

 

[Robert Harris]

I believe before 2004 or thereabouts, video masters were derived from dupes. Since that period, the original SEs have been accessed.

What we’re currently seeing, shorn of originsl color, and unwanted detail, should all be from original. Disney is beginning the process correctly.

It’s all in implementation.

They should not have to go back and rescan.

 

[warnerbro]

I think Disney would sell tons if they would give us a choice and offer the original negative version. As we can all see from the original background and cell featured above, every frame was a masterpiece and the women who were working on the lot gave the animators some of their rouge to put on Snow White's cheeks. A computer can't replicate that.

 

[telzall]

And they need to stop using the alleged ignorance of children (more like ignorant or careless adults projecting those qualities onto a straw figure of their own creation) as an excuse to cut every corner.

*The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad was another matter; there, they already broke them up from the get-go into two separate releases paired from other cartoons, the full version with Bing Crosby and Basil Rathbone's wraparounds remaining unreleased until an early 1990s laserdisc release.

That's what I'm talking about!!! Well said!!!

 

[titch]

I broke down and bought the original CAV laserdisc from eBay and did an A/B comparison, which is not easy to do on my receiver (Sony STR-DH820) because of the lag time of switching between sources.

Now that's what I call dedication!

 

[MatthewA]

They're selling for pennies on the dollar compared to their original MSRPs.

 

[David Norman]

I think Disney would sell tons

I would take that wager on the negative side.

Now a given I'd be in line for the purchase, but I see no real mass audience (or profit) for this kind of project if it's done as a normal retail sale. Maybe they could do something like a High Dollar direct from Disney special edition and expect to sell Twilight Time numbers, but more of a passion project than revenue generation item

 

[MatthewA]

I can't find any similar examples for Peter Pan, but here's an example of what 35mm nitrate Technicolor prints of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs looked like (there are also examples from Gone with the Wind and The Wizard of Oz that are similar in tone):

EDIT: They also have examples of The Three Little Pigs. Not radically different from what I'm used to.

https://zauberklang.ch/filmcolors/galleries/snow-white-1937/