A Few Words About A few words about...™ Pal Joey -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Mike Frezon]

Waaaaaaay OT, but I just wanted to add that iTunes had a promotional video up of Paul McCartney's newest jazz-flavored CD. (It's awful, BTW. But, that's me. He never should have tried such a project--especially at his age and after the abuse he's given his voice.). But the backing musicians are top-notch--led by Diana Krall and her regular studio musicians, John Clayton, Anthony Wilson, etc. But the video showed all the musicians in the old studios of the Capitol building. It was very neat to see.

And, if anyone wants to hear what the Capitol building could do for a recording...and you've got an SACD player...run (don't walk) to Steve Hoffman's site (or Amazon) and buy some of the new high-rez Nat King Cole albums from those Capitol years that have been remastered from the original studio tapes. They are also available on that new-fangled heavy vinyl. All I can say is "wow." It makes me yearn for the day the Sinatra estate might get Frank's Capitol recordings the same treatment. If only...

Back on-topic: Pal Joey could be a Twilight Time title on which I could see spending that kind of money. That isolated soundtrack option is intriguing.

 

[David_B_K]

Robin9 and Charles, that's great you already have the albums on vinyl. Wish I had been listening to Sinatra when vinyl was still the medium.
--SNIP--
In any case you need the CDs with the new mastering.
Trust me on this: buy the box-set.
Supplement it with The Complete Capitol Singles Collection:

Richard, I used to have the cute boxset with the little mini albums; but I sold it off. The most recently remastered Capitol albums are actually not the ones to get. Those were remastered by Bob Norberg. He basically remastered the albums the way many over-processed Blu-rays are done. He heavily filtered the highs to remove tape hiss, and then went back and bumped up the highs with what was left. For the mono albums, he did a sort of new version of "duophonic" to give the illusion of stereo. They are definitely listenable, and will certainly do in a pinch, but would not be my first choice.
I would recommend that anyone looking to collect Franks' Capitol albums should look for the earlier CDs that were mastered by Larry Walsh on either ebay or from amazon sellers. These are not "perfect" either, as Walsh was not provided with the real master tapes of the albums, but rather, later remixes in which more reverb was added (Norberg used the same tapes as Walsh). However, Walsh did little if any processing; so the music sounds at least as good on CD as the tapes he was given to work with. There was a box set of the Walsh versions that sadly, is out of print.
If you buy all of Sinatra's albums, or buy that box set, and then buy that set of Sinatra's singles, you will still not have the songs from Pal Joey, as they are not included. The only way(s) to get the Pal Joey songs are from an original LP, or an out-of-print CD called Sinatra Sings the Select Rogers and Hart, or the Sinatra in Hollywood set.
You will also want the superb 3-disc The Capitol Years set, as it contains some songs not found on CD elsewhere (in the USA, anyway), such as Our Town and the unreleased Memories of You.

 

[Richard--W]

Thanks for your insights, David.
Which box-set contained Walsh's mastering?
Can you find a link to it on amazon?
Just type in "Sinatra Capitol box" and they will all come up.
I have the British box-set The Capitol Years --
http://www.amazon.com/Capitol-Years-Frank-Sinatra/dp/B00000FDCY/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1331074329&sr=1-7
which contains 21 CDs that sound brighter than the American collection Concepts:
http://www.amazon.com/Concepts-Frank-Sinatra/dp/B00004Y9ZN/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1331075270&sr=1-8
I don't own Concepts but I've heard it and it sounds just like the mini-box linked above. However compromised the mini-box may be, it still sounds mighty fine, with Sinatra in a deep rich elastic voice. I highly recommend the mini-box to anyone who enjoys the Pal Joey vocals.

 

[Cineman]

I just bought this Capitol set--the only caveat is that, except for one CD, there are no bonus tracks included from the individual CD releases.

I for one wish none of the CD versions of Sinatra's original albums included bonus tracks. Sinatra pioneered the "concept album" where every song contributed to a specific mood and emotional response. To that end, not only was the selection of the songs important but the sequence and flow of them, even down to which song ended side one before the "break" and which song began side two (something that doesn't apply to a CD version, of course). Consequently, any bonus tracks added later, much as we might want more songs, tampers with his artistic intention for the album. Unless he left notes on which and where more songs might have been added, bonus tracks are somebody else's idea for what a vocal album masterpiece like "Where Are You?" or "Come Fly With Me" needed to be improved upon. One exception I can think of is when they added "The Lady is a Tramp" to his great "A Swingin' Affair" album since it was apparently known he wanted it to be included in the first place but there just wasn't enough room.

 

[lark144]

PAL JOEY was a pivotal experience for me, which I first saw on late night TV on Chanel 13 sometime in the mid-80's. Before this I only knew the Sinatra of "Strangers In the Night" & "My Way." His rendition of "I Didn't Know What Time It Was" was truly a revelation, both for the song, the singing of it, (starting as a ballad only accompanied by what was probably Bill Miller's piano, then upping the tempo and the entire orchestra joining in, which completely transformed the song and also that emotional moment, going from intimacy to joy) and especially the arrangements of Nelson Riddle. The film itself I was never all that crazy about (although I love Irving Glassberg's color cinematography)
I began collecting Sinatra with a cassette of "Only the Lonely," then bought the CD set "The Capitol Years", which still has the best sound in my opinion of any Capitol Sinatra releases on CD in the US, and is also essential for the rehearsal tape of Sinatra and Bill Miller running through "One For My Baby." As far as PAL JOEY on CD, I once found in a thrift store in NYC, a double CD on Capitol Australia of PAL JOEY & CAN CAN with excellent sound. I recommend that to anyone if they can find it. There is also the first CD issue of "The Select Rogers & Hart.," which is decent, though it does have reverb. But of course, having the option of playing the soundtrack on the new PAL JOEY Blu ray from Twilight Time is probably going to sound better than any CD. Like many of the posters here, I now have mostly original issue LPs of Sinatra from the 40's through the 80's, and that is what I listen to. (I now prefer the early Columbia sides to anything from the Capitol years, but I started my investigation of Sinatra's distinctive artistry with the Capitol concept albums) Although these days I'm mostly listening to Bing Crosby, especially the box set of radio checks Mosaic brought out last year. But PAL JOEY is where I started in my discovery of "classic" American singing and song writing, so I'm severely tempted to get this Blu ray, in spite of the cost.

 

[lark144]

Sorry, but I just remembered that the cinematographer of PAL JOEY is Harold Lipstein, not Irving Glassberg.

 

[Catlady]

I for one wish none of the CD versions of Sinatra's original albums included bonus tracks. Sinatra pioneered the "concept album" where every song contributed to a specific mood and emotional response. To that end, not only was the selection of the songs important but the sequence and flow of them, even down to which song ended side one before the "break" and which song began side two (something that doesn't apply to a CD version, of course). Consequently, any bonus tracks added later, much as we might want more songs, tampers with his artistic intention for the album. Unless he left notes on which and where more songs might have been added, bonus tracks are somebody else's idea for what a vocal album masterpiece like "Where Are You?" or "Come Fly With Me" needed to be improved upon. One exception I can think of is when they added "The Lady is a Tramp" to his great "A Swingin' Affair" album since it was apparently known he wanted it to be included in the first place but there just wasn't enough room.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you--I like that the albums are for the most part replicas of the original LPs. I'm happy with buying and keeping the bonus tracks separate. But you are getting fewer tracks in the box set than you would if you bought individual CDs, and people should be aware of that.
On the other hand, the only bonus track that seems truly jarring to me is "Lean Baby" on the CD of POINT OF NO RETURN. Holy moly, what were they thinking?
If anyone's looking to buy the box set at Amazon, the pricing there has been fluctuating. It's been $29 and change from Amazon marketplace seller Newbury Comics (which is who I got mine from), except every other day or so, it goes up to $60 from that same seller, and then drops again. (This is for new, not used.) So if you see the $60 price, you might want to wait.

 

[David_B_K]

Richard, if you have the British set, you have the best set. I did not refer to it because it is (sadly, unbelievably) out of print, and only available at ridiculous prices from 3rd party sellers. It is not known exactly who mastered all the CDs. It is basically the CD version of the LP set mastered by Alan Dell in the 1980s. However, most of the CDs are thought to be the Walsh versions. None of the Norberg versions are included.
Another thing which distinguishes the British set is that the “bonus tracks” are not included (I agree with those who do not think bonus tracks should be included; they ruin the "concept" of the concept albums). Instead, the British set follows the lead of the LP set and uses the original Capitol Singles compilation albums of Sinatra’s best A and B sides (This is Sinatra, Vols 1 & 2, All the Way, Look to Your Heart, etc.). So, with that set, you get all the concept albums with no annoying extra tracks and all the best singles (but you still do not get the songs from Pal Joey)
The American set is no longer available either. It came in a wood box and included the Walsh masterings with the bonus tracks. It did not include the excellent singles albums like the British set; but it did include the oddity Tone Poems of Color. One can still find one-offs of the original Walsh CDs from third party sellers. They were mastered in the late 80s/early 90s. Some sellers identify their version as the Walsh version; but it is good to email the seller if you are not certain.
Two more release I recommend are the Mobile Fidelity versions of NICE 'N' EASY and FRANK SINATRA SINGS FOR ONLY THE LONELY. Both sound better than any previous CD version, but they are pricey. Only the Lonely has the added bonus of being the original mono mix. Through 1958, the Capitol engineers were more adept at recording and mixing Sinatra's albums in mono than they were in the rather new medium of stereo. Only The Lonely used multiple mics to pick up specific instruments, whereas the stereo version (recorded simultaneously) used only three mics which fed to different console/recorder in a different control room. Both versions are good; but you hear so much more in the mono version (particularly Bill Miller's piano), that it will seem like a new album.
The same can be said for the mono version of COME FLY WITH ME. It was recorded the same way as Only the Lonely. There are many more audible instruments throughout (like harp glissandos in the title track). Unfortunately, this has only been reissued on LP. It was labeled as the stereo release, but they accidentally (fortunately) issued the mono version. They may have redone it in stereo; so if anyone attempts to order the mono version, it would be wise to inquire from the seller beforehand.
Even though I am not high on the Norberg boxed set, it isn't horrible. I'd compare it quality-wise to the Blu-ray of, say Branagh's Hamlet. Overly processed and not as good as it could be; but still worthwhile. For the money, it is a good way to start (but I'd still get the 3-disc CAPITOL YEARS first.

 

[David_B_K]

Unless he left notes on which and where more songs might have been added, bonus tracks are somebody else's idea for what a vocal album masterpiece like "Where Are You?" or "Come Fly With Me" needed to be improved upon. One exception I can think of is when they added "The Lady is a Tramp" to his great "A Swingin' Affair" album since it was apparently known he wanted it to be included in the first place but there just wasn't enough room.

I agree. Close to You is one of the few that I listen to with the bonus tracks. The last three songs on the CD were intended for the original album, but were cut for time (There's a Flaw in My Flue was only intended as a 'joke'). Because they were recorded in that distinctive chamber music style with the Hollywood String quartet, I can't think of a better place for them than on the album for which they were recorded. And The Nearness of You was cut from Nice 'N' Easy because of time.

 

[lark144]

Yes, the one problem with replacing Sinatra Capitol CD's with the original LPs is I can no longer listen to There's a Flaw in my Flew, in sequence on the Close To You album.

 

[Cineman]

Instead, the British set follows the lead of the LP set and uses the original Capitol Singles compilation albums of Sinatra’s best A and B sides (This is Sinatra, Vols 1 & 2, All the Way, Look to Your Heart, etc.).

Oh my god, This is Sinatra (my favorite, Vol.1) and All The Way! What can you say about a singer of some of the greatest concept albums of all time AND some of the greatest compilation albums of all time? Add those Capital Years sets and if you aren't an ardent Sinatra fan after a single listen, you just don't like music.

 

[lark144]

Oh my god, This is Sinatra (my favorite, Vol.1) and All The Way! What can you say about a singer of some of the greatest concept albums of all time AND some of the greatest compilation albums of all time? Add those Capital Years sets and if you aren't an ardent Sinatra fan after a single listen, you just don't like music.

Dear Cineman: Hello. Thank you so much for your response! But I did not post the quote you attribute to me. I know nothing about Sinatra on CD because I own all the Sinatra Capitol, Reprise, Columbia LPS and many singles and bootleg concert performances on vinyl, although these days I'm listening to Bing Crosby. But Sinatra started me on an exploration 20 years ago of the American songbook and pop singing for which I am eternally grateful. He also caused my LP collection to expand precariously. Listening to Sinatra may also have saved my life and influenced my writing style. And it all began by watching PAL JOEY late one Saturday night on Channel 13, back when they used to show movies regularly on broadcast TV.
I don't want this to turn into a Sinatra blog, as this is a film site. So let's talk a little more about the film PAL JOEY. I must confess that through my exposure to Sinatra's singing of Rogers & Hart, which absolutely floored me 20 years ago, I began an exploration of the original Broadway show PAL JOEY, and grew to love that as well, to the extent that I now have trouble watching the film. What I particularly object to is the sweetening of the character of Pal Joey (I would have loved to have seen Sinatra play the part as a sly, sexy but not particular smart charmer who "horizontally was at his very best."), severely compromised the choreography by refusing to rehearse (completely different from how Sinatra approached singing, for during the Capitol years, he would often record 70 takes of a song, especially during the sessions for Point of No Return, which happens to be my favorite Capitol album) and also the "happy ending" which switches the choice of romantic object to Sinatra. (This is also present in the changed ending of SOME CAME RUNNING, where Sinatra insisted that Shirley MacLaine die instead of him). But PAL JOEY still contains those magnificent scenes of Sinatra singing the Rogers & Hart songbook as arranged by Nelson Riddle. So I finally bit the bullet and ordered the Blu ray from Twilight Time yesterday.
Since you seem to be a fan of Sinatra's Capitol work, I'm going to recommend a CD that I think is out of print but you should be able to find easily. It was put out on Blue Note about ten years ago and is a live recording of Sinatra with the Red Norvo Sextet in Australia in 1959. I've never heard Sinatra in better voice, especially the way he sings Night & Day as a counter-melody to Red Norvo vibes. It's really magnificent! As is much of the singing in PAL JOEY, which I am looking forward to watching in Blu ray!

 

[Catlady]

, I'm going to recommend a CD that I think is out of print but you should be able to find easily. It was put out on Blue Note about ten years ago and is a live recording of Sinatra with the Red Norvo Sextet in Australia in 1959. I've never heard Sinatra in better voice, especially the way he sings Night & Day as a counter-melody to Red Norvo vibes. It's really magnificent! As is much of the singing in PAL JOEY, which I am looking forward to watching in Blu ray!

Never heard of this before, but based on your recommendation I just ordered a used copy at Amazon, where there are many inexpensive copies available. Thanks!

 

[Richard--W]

I agree Sinatra could have the played the role either way. The original Broadway play from 1938-39 is darker, edgier, sleazier and internally different from the film adaptation. That version would be viable today in either medium. The Broadway soundtrack CD with some different songs and arrangements is available, and so is a new recording of it. They all pale in Sinatra's shadow.

 

[Cineman]

Dear Cineman: Hello. Thank you so much for your response! But I did not post the quote you attribute to me.

Sorry about the confusion. Yes, that was supposed to be quoted from David_B_K . Don't know how that happened.

Since you seem to be a fan of Sinatra's Capitol work, I'm going to recommend a CD that I think is out of print but you should be able to find easily. It was put out on Blue Note about ten years ago and is a live recording of Sinatra with the Red Norvo Sextet in Australia in 1959. I've never heard Sinatra in better voice, especially the way he sings Night & Day as a counter-melody to Red Norvo vibes. It's really magnificent! As is much of the singing in PAL JOEY, which I am looking forward to watching in Blu ray!

I absolutely agree and have that Red Norvo Sextet in Australia CD. That one ought to be a revelation to anyone who thought Sinatra needed those lush strings and gorgeous full orchestra arrangements to sound great and make memorable recordings.

 

[lark144]

I agree Sinatra could have the played the role either way. The original Broadway play from 1938-39 is darker, edgier, sleazier and internally different from the film adaptation. That version would be viable today in either medium. The Broadway soundtrack CD with some different songs and arrangements is available, and so is a new recording of it. They all pale in Sinatra's shadow.

Dear Richard--W: Yes, when Sinatra was committed to a project, every other rendition "pales in his shadow." The reason THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM is still talked about and watched today is mostly because of Sinatra's performance as a drug addict, especially the details in his line readings, how they change as the character first becomes an addict and then is cured. Also watching his movements throughout the film and the difference in the way he shuffles a deck of cards from scene to scene, is truly riveting. If Sinatra had read John O"Hara's stories and attempted to portray that character, PAL JOEY would have been a great motion picture. But Sinatra didn't even memorize his lines. He didn't rehearse with the other actors. He threw out scenes, because they necessitated that he actually do character work, things that he certainly, based on THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM, could do. Because of this, there is a huge absence in PAL JOEY, that of the character of Pal joey. Instead, one gets a watered down, slightly romanticized version of Sinatra's "ring a ding ding" persona, which I must confess is my least favorite Sinatra. However, Sinatra was certainly committed during the musical scenes arranged by Nelson Riddle. Which is why I bought the Blu ray this afternoon. But the movie itself suffers from Sinatra's lack of commitment and disinterest. Even so, it's still a movie I enjoy watching.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Finally got around to watching Pal Joey this afternoon.

Exceptional transfer. Sony did a really superb job with
this. Was quite surprised by my rear channels kicking
in now and then.

Since San Francisco is my favorite city, it was quite
nice to see many of the location shots.

In all, a highly pleasing Blu-ray presentation.

 

[benbess]

Finally got around to watching Pal Joey this afternoon.
Exceptional transfer.  Sony did a really superb job with 
this.  Was quite surprised by my rear channels kicking
in now and then.
Since San Francisco is my favorite city, it was quite
nice to see many of the location shots.
In all, a highly pleasing Blu-ray presentation.

Good to know--since I just splurged on this one. How is it as a movie?

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Ben,

Was afraid someone would ask that.

Not particularly my kind of movie, despite the fact
I like Frank Sinatra.

I just came off of watching Chicago on Blu-ray prior
to that film, so I was in the mood for another music
film.

I thought it was okay, but in all, I would probably not
watch it again.

 

[benbess]

Oh well, thanks for letting me know. As a fan of Vertigo I'm kind of curious about another film with Novak set in the same city...