A Few Words About A few words about...™ Howards End -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Vincent_P]

Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong ...something didn't look right (the first time I checked a few days back) from the opening scene of Mrs Wilcox strolling the grounds of HE, which Patty mentioned above. That scene looked rather noisy (in a digital/compression artifact sort of way) and pale/lacking in contrast...

That opening scene is a long optical- the credits are superimposed over the image. As such, it is 2-generations removed from the footage surrounding it, which would explain the increase in grain and other possible issues with that section of the film.


Vincent

 

[Vincent_P]

Or perhaps Criterion was supplied with a master for that extra that had already been improperly converted to begin with and there was nothing they could do about it.


Vincent

Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong



Then probably someone at Criterion neglected to do a proper 3-2 pulldown conversion or similar for those footages, which I guess would yield a 20% speed-up (ie. 6 frames missing out of 30fps), not just the usual 4% PAL speed-up.


I could live w/ that for that sort of extras though it doesn't exactly look good for Criterion to have one more hiccup thrown in for this title.


_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Originally Posted by marsnkc

Or perhaps Criterion was supplied with a master for that extra that had already been improperly converted to begin with and there was nothing they could do about it.

Good points though the issues are there nonetheless.

_Man_

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by John Hodson , who besides being utterly reliable, fit the modification before sale, and the unit is fully guaranteed and warranted by them. They also say that the multi-region modification simply cannot be disabled by firmware - the way it works, the hardware just doesn't come into the equation.

I bit the bullet and ordered a mod kit from blueraychip.dk - $69 complete. I'm relying on good word over at AVS Forum. I'd like to have gone with CRT since they're an approved Oppo retailer but they were more expensive. Some on AVS were saying they could get a mod on eBay for $25. The cheapest I saw was $44+. I would risk eBay for $25 but not $44............

 

Well, I hate to resurrect a dead thread, but I recently tried to watch Howards End. Let's just say the results are what led me on an Internet search that led me to this thread.


After purchasing HE I was so excited about sitting down to watch this fantastic film, but that excitement left while watching the very first scene.


Just as has been pointed out, the menus look wonderful, but as soon as the film opens with the Vanessa Redgrave scene of her walking around the outside of the house, there was noise as I have never seen before. I'm using a Sony S360 and a new Sony EX500 HDTV.


So with this disappointment in what I saw I took to the Internet to see if others have experienced similar issues and apparently so.


My experience seems very similar as to what I have read as written by Sean, but just not quite as extreme. For me, detail and color are very good, but the grids and lines of noise ruin what is otherwise a wonderful image. And this is not grain. When grain is present it is visible, but not a distraction. What is in HE is truly a distraction and is just as described as others as pulsating, grid-like, etc.


I have found that by reducing the sharpness to '0' on my TV sets does help a little. I've also found that for each level of noise reduction I used on the TV (low, med, high), this noise goes away more the higher I go (but so does the detail). I've never had to make changes in my equipment to be able to watch any other BD film (which I have a wide range of).


With no posts since June I am not sure what to make of this. Was anything ever determined by Criterion regarding this release? I'm planning to contact Criterion to advise them and see if anything new has come up regarding this release.


I'd be happy to add anything if anyone has any questions.


Thanks to those who contributed to this thread with their info.

 

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Douglas Burkett

Well, I hate to resurrect a dead thread, but I recently tried to watch Howards End. Let's just say the results are what led me on an Internet search that led me to this thread.


After purchasing HE I was so excited about sitting down to watch this fantastic film, but that excitement left while watching the very first scene.


Just as has been pointed out, the menus look wonderful, but as soon as the film opens with the Vanessa Redgrave scene of her walking around the outside of the house, there was noise as I have never seen before. I'm using a Sony S360 and a new Sony EX500 HDTV.


So with this disappointment in what I saw I took to the Internet to see if others have experienced similar issues and apparently so.


My experience seems very similar as to what I have read as written by Sean, but just not quite as extreme. For me, detail and color are very good, but the grids and lines of noise ruin what is otherwise a wonderful image. And this is not grain. When grain is present it is visible, but not a distraction. What is in HE is truly a distraction and is just as described as others as pulsating, grid-like, etc.


I have found that by reducing the sharpness to '0' on my TV sets does help a little. I've also found that for each level of noise reduction I used on the TV (low, med, high), this noise goes away more the higher I go (but so does the detail). I've never had to make changes in my equipment to be able to watch any other BD film (which I have a wide range of).


With no posts since June I am not sure what to make of this. Was anything ever determined by Criterion regarding this release? I'm planning to contact Criterion to advise them and see if anything new has come up regarding this release.


I'd be happy to add anything if anyone has any questions.


Thanks to those who contributed to this thread with their info.

Hi Douglas,


I've also been reading this thread, and found it odd that a disc would be equipment dependent - never heard of such a thing ever before so it baffled me. I took it to assume that it was more *calibration* dependent, but still very strange. But maybe it's a Blu-ray player issue though. I rented it via Netflix and can say it looks beautiful on my TV - a Sony 55EX500. I noticed you have an EX500 set as well, so let me post my calibration settings, which may not mean much for your set (variance - especially in the white balance), but should be a good guide. These are accurate settings, done with expensive chroma meters, etc. I use an OPPO Blu-ray player, so if these settings don't improve the picture, I'd then say it's the player. The people with issues seem to have Sony players. Who knows.


Picture Mode: Custom
Backlight: 2
Picture: 90
Brightness: 52
Color: 50
Hue: 0
Color Temp: Warm 2
Sharpness: Min
Noise Reduction: Off
MPG Noise Red: Off
MotionFlow: Off
Cinemotion: Off
Ambient Sensor: Off

Advanced Settings

Adv Contrast Enhancer: Off
Black Corrector: Off
Gamma: -2
Clear White: Off
Live Color: Off


White Balance

RGain -7
GGain 0
BGain -8
RBias 0
GBias 0
BBias +10

Picture size: Full Pixel

 

Urbo,


Thank you for the reply on this...I was hoping someone would help keep this active.


I also wrote to Criterion before I found this thread, so if I hear anything from them that is interesting and different than what is already posted I will be happy to post it here as well.


Anyhow, I agree with you that the issue does seem to mostly involve Sony BD players.


I'm looking forward to trying you calibration settings (or at least use them as a starting point). I know that when I changed my sharpness to min instead of where it was it did make a difference in helping to get rid of the noise. So thank you for listing your settings.


I'll have to wait to try them though as I am about to return the EX500. Don't worry, there is not a problem with it, but I honestly don't care for the Motionflow. It's the only reason that I went with this over the EX400 for about $200 more. And if I am not going to use the function (I watch way more movies than sports), I don't see the point in keeping it; I don't think there is any difference between this and the 400 other than the Motionflow processing. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts though on it.


Thanks again for your reply about HE. It's a wonderful film I it would be worth it for me to change some settings to be able to watch it the way others seem to be enjoying it.

 

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Douglas Burkett

Urbo,


Thank you for the reply on this...I was hoping someone would help keep this active.


I also wrote to Criterion before I found this thread, so if I hear anything from them that is interesting and different than what is already posted I will be happy to post it here as well.


Anyhow, I agree with you that the issue does seem to mostly involve Sony BD players.


I'm looking forward to trying you calibration settings (or at least use them as a starting point). I know that when I changed my sharpness to min instead of where it was it did make a difference in helping to get rid of the noise. So thank you for listing your settings.


I'll have to wait to try them though as I am about to return the EX500. Don't worry, there is not a problem with it, but I honestly don't care for the Motionflow. It's the only reason that I went with this over the EX400 for about $200 more. And if I am not going to use the function (I watch way more movies than sports), I don't see the point in keeping it; I don't think there is any difference between this and the 400 other than the Motionflow processing. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts though on it.


Thanks again for your reply about HE. It's a wonderful film I it would be worth it for me to change some settings to be able to watch it the way others seem to be enjoying it.

Let us know what you find. Sharpness on even 1 is too much! Even with a Sony player, this should be addressed and fixable via a firmware update from Sony. Perhaps they are the ones that need to hear it.


Regarding the EX500 series, IMHO KEEP IT! It's a better set - better panel, etc. And Motionflow counts, even when OFF in the menu (as I also have it). How? It counts on Blu-ray films that are 24Hz. With Motionflow OFF, it will still do a 5:5 pulldown, so you get 24x5=120! Having it set to ON just enables the additional frame interpolation nonsense (IMO of course) that I can care less for as well. But it does do 5:5 pulldown (whether ON or OFF), so that is a very good thing.

 

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by urbo73




Let us know what you find. Sharpness on even 1 is too much! Even with a Sony player, this should be addressed and fixable via a firmware update from Sony. Perhaps they are the ones that need to hear it.


Regarding the EX500 series, IMHO KEEP IT! It's a better set - better panel, etc. And Motionflow counts, even when OFF in the menu (as I also have it). How? It counts on Blu-ray films that are 24Hz. With Motionflow OFF, it will still do a 5:5 pulldown, so you get 24x5=120! Having it set to ON just enables the additional frame interpolation nonsense (IMO of course) that I can care less for as well. But it does do 5:5 pulldown (whether ON or OFF), so that is a very good thing.

 

[urbo73]

Sorry for double post.

 

Urbo,


I tried some of your setting suggestions and they worked well. I took the sharpness down to zero. Combined with setting my noise reduction to 'low' instead of 'off', this almost got rid of all of the noise problems with the HE disc and it was very watchable. It was much better than the DVD and is worth making a few changes to my system when I watch it on blu. I plan to try to get used to zero sharpness-do you keep yours at minimum all of the time when watching any HD signal or only for your blu discs?


I also brought my backlight down a little; it took some time to get used to, it produced a much better depth in the picture. Thank you for your ideas and suggestions.


I did end up downgrading to the EX400. I know what you are saying about the 5:5 pulldown, but the difference doesn't quite overcome the $300 more the EX500 costs (I got a really good deal on the 400). The 5:5 pulldown would have been the only upgrade in my opinion as I do not care for the AMP function. In terms of the AMP, it's not a matter of not being able to see the difference (I can), I simply do not care for the affect the AMP creates. I realize the AMP and the 120Hz creating the 5:5 pulldown are entirely different functions, but $300 for the 5:5 is just a little much for me. As far as a 120Hz set in general, if we were talking about being able to see 'new' frames with the 120Hz ability (having a real 120Hz signal) instead of simply repeating same ones that would be a different story and I think those two things combined would make it worth it.

Anyhow, I am now looking forward to watching HE now that most of the issues seem to be resolved. What remains of the noise is bad enough to warrant watching the DVD over the blu ray. Hope others can also make some adjustments that will help them see the blu version of HE.


Thanks again for your time and suggestions on the issue.


BTW, I did contact Criterion and they mentioned they have had quite a few issues with this disc but made no mention of any new release to correct the issue. I was gladly offered a replacement but with the changes I made in my system having a positive impact and ALMOST getting rid of the noise problems, I am happy to keep my blu disc version of HE.

 

[warnerbro]

I agree with , this transfer looks like I'm watching it on TV during a blizzard. Every other blu-ray looks fine, but this one has so much digital noise on it, it is unwatchable unless I turn the sharpness all the way down, which completely defeats the purpose of Hi-def. Has Criterion made any comment other than that it is fine?

 

With the sharpness turned on, isn't any amount of sharpness added by the TV an 'artificial' sharpness in that it is merely a processed-enhanced sharpness? I'm starting to appreciate the idea of sharpness being turned off. Should sharpness always be turned off?


Warnerbro, Criterion said they did have a lot of complaints about the disc. Even with half of the sharpness I used to have turned on it is much more watchable and seems to have more of the film grain rather than the noise as some are seeing. I e-mailed them on their website and they were very generous in offering to replace the disc with any other disc in their catalog, but I am now happy with the Howards End disc after having made some adjustments. I'm not saying it's perfect, but much better than the DVD set. Just my experience.

 

[urbo73]

Douglas, yes those are my calibration settings that I never change. Sharpness on Min/0 is key, as anything above that adds fake information to the video. If you pull up a sharpness pattern with DVE or Spears & Munsil, you will see halos, etc. If you're used to it higher, it will take some time to get used to it, as the proper image will look softer but more accurate. Same thing with the backlight. I have a Sony 350 stashed away from when I moved that I still haven't unpacked (it's for the bedroom set), and when I take it out I will try it hooked up to the 55EX500 to see if there are any differences. If so, then clearly the player is doing something as well, and only a firmware update will fix that.

 

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Douglas Burkett

With the sharpness turned on, isn't any amount of sharpness added by the TV an 'artificial' sharpness in that it is merely a processed-enhanced sharpness? I'm starting to appreciate the idea of sharpness being turned off. Should sharpness always be turned off?

I posted my reply before seeing this. Yes, this is true from my experience. I don't think I've ever seen a display device (CRT, DLP, LCD, Plasma, etc.) that wasn't optimal with the sharpness on min or 0. There may be a handful, but by and large sharpness on min/0 is the way to go. You can easily check this with a pattern as I said above.

 

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by warnerbro , this transfer looks like I'm watching it on TV during a blizzard. Every other blu-ray looks fine, but this one has so much digital noise on it, it is unwatchable unless I turn the sharpness all the way down, which completely defeats the purpose of Hi-def. Has Criterion made any comment other than that it is fine?

Why do you say that turning the sharpness all the way down defeats the purpose of HD? I don't see any correlation. See my thoughts on sharpness above.

 

[24fpssean]

Douglas, do NOT get a replacement disc from Criterion, it will simply be the same exact thing. Criterion said they would not be revisiting Howards End, in spite of the countless complaints about the disc. Instead they released the DVD version earlier this year and it is gorgeous - the grid, the silent film like flicker of the opening titles, the blown out shadows - all corrected for the DVD, spine #488. Colors are even richer. Detail is still very good and in some shots more realistic than the blu ray, which looked like a chalky Xerox copy. The Tetris-like grid in the shadows on the blu ray, I have since noticed, seems to be generated by the sound (but does not appear in the black bars at the top and bottom, which by the way are lighter than normal).


Criterion got all these kudos for their stunning release of The Thin Red Line on blu ray, but that's how all blu rays should look. Howards End, made a mere six years before TTRL, is unwatchable. Criterion's release of Lang's M is vastly superior and vastly older. Universal did the honorable thing by recalling, correcting and replacing their botched releases of Gladiator and Saving Private Ryan. Despite their other successes, Criterion have failed with Howards End. Time seems to be proving this now that the first giddy flush of its premiere on blu ray has long passed.

 

[PaulDA]

I haven't seen the BD of this movie, so I will not comment on its quality (or lack thereof). However, I believe Douglas was saying Criterion offered him any title in their BD catalogue as a replacement, not simply a replacement disc for the same film. This does not directly address the problems raised in discussion in this thread with respect to Howards End, but it does put a bit of a different (more positive) light on Criterion's customer service, in all fairness.

 

[Jay_J]

Originally Posted by 24fpssean

Douglas, do NOT get a replacement disc from Criterion, it will simply be the same exact thing. Criterion said they would not be revisiting Howards End, in spite of the countless complaints about the disc. Instead they released the DVD version earlier this year and it is gorgeous - the grid, the silent film like flicker of the opening titles, the blown out shadows - all corrected for the DVD, spine #488. Colors are even richer. Detail is still very good and in some shots more realistic than the blu ray, which looked like a chalky Xerox copy. The Tetris-like grid in the shadows on the blu ray, I have since noticed, seems to be generated by the sound (but does not appear in the black bars at the top and bottom, which by the way are lighter than normal).


Criterion got all these kudos for their stunning release of The Thin Red Line on blu ray, but that's how all blu rays should look. Howards End, made a mere six years before TTRL, is unwatchable. Criterion's release of Lang's M is vastly superior and vastly older. Universal did the honorable thing by recalling, correcting and replacing their botched releases of Gladiator and Saving Private Ryan. Despite their other successes, Criterion have failed with Howards End. Time seems to be proving this now that the first giddy flush of its premiere on blu ray has long passed.

Gladiator was never recalled. Universal did do a new transfer, and offer free replacements to people who had purchased the original. But, they did not recall the copies that were in the stores, or being sold online. That is why many of us have still not bought a replacement...can't trust the online orders or find one of the new ones in stores.

 

[24fpssean]

Really? I don't personally own Gladiator but know people how had sent their old disc in and were given a new one with the supposed "new" transfer. http://www.dvdtown.com/news/paramount-creates-exchange-program-for-us-gladiator-blu-ray-release/7839


And Criterion never offered me another title, at the time I was told I could only get Howards End replaced with another Howards End.