roxy1927

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That is horrifying those films were junked. That means we are talking the late 70s when people were already aware of how important those original elements were. I was seeing beautiful prints in NY revival houses and the directors of those houses knew patrons wanted to see great prints. That's why you went to a theater to see them. Otherwise you could just see them on TV. The print of SITR(it practically burned your eye the colors were so rich) at the '75 revival in the Music Hall had Vincent Canby so thunderstruck he did a long NY Times Sunday piece on it that weekend.

There was also a hit 70s extended run revival of The Gang's All Here at I believe maybe the 57th Street Playhouse. Rex Reed said the colors were so amazing the print must have been kept all those years in Daryl Zanuck's sock drawer. (Yes he meant it as a compliment.)

The people who did this were really oblivious incompetents. I mean even Disney and MGM knew what they were doing.
 
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David Weicker

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Was this process from forty years ago (that RAH mentioned) when they were copying their assets from the original combustible film stock to the newer less combustible film stock?

Wasn’t it a safety concern that prompted this?

Or am I confusing the two?
 

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You know folks, this is the first time that one of RAH's reviews has convinced me to delay or even consider cancelling any purchase plans of movies I was looking forward to buying. I had 3 of the June TT releases on my radar but I'll probably delay at least until near the end of the sale period. I did have interest in the following:

Pin-Up Girl (1944)

Mother Wore Tights (1947)

Hussy (1980)


I didn't have any interest in Hello Frisco, Hello (1943) and that might be just as well. I did have definite interest in Pin-Up Girl and Mother Wore Tights and I'll probably end up buying these two while the sale is still on.

Hussy (1980) of course was not affected by the absence of decent Technicolor elements so Helen Mirren is still on my list.

Again I was wondering how these Technicolor releases would compare with the Blu-ray release of the Technicolor film Anchors Aweigh (1944).. Any opinions welcome.
 
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[...]Twilight Time deserves the Mother Teresa Award for releasing these.[...]
After erasing a three paragraph draft and theory, I've decided to stay out of this one;
except to say that I sense very valid reasons as to why Robert Harris may have made the above statement.

Okay, maybe I'll go so far as to surmise that our having these 3 titles made available to us could fall within the very same lines of the Twilight Time rationale that was found within the release of "Comes a Horseman". Indeed, "Comes a Horseman" was known from the onset as a transfer that was never going to be up to the usual Twilight Time's specs; but the film and content, itself, was deemed too darned good not pass along to us. And yes, after seeing this very fine film, I was left with a hunger to see a restoration of this Gordon Willis work. But in the end, I found myself to being more than satisfied about having added "Comes a Horseman" to my collection than not. Perhaps I'm being a bit romantic, but I sense that Nick Redman was behind these 20th Century-Fox selections and, film historian that he was; along with his knowledge of Disney's then future acquisition of their vaults entire; there may had been an duteous feeling that these 3 films needed to be captured for us; the Twilight Time viewership; before all was too late. Just a sense, a theory, a hunch; and based on nothing more. Sometimes perfection can be found within the imperfections.
 
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ahollis

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Brad-wait for a sale down the road. These are great examples of the Fox 40’s musicals. I bought them and I have enjoyed them. You have a really good knowledge of different genres and I think you would enjoy this titles.
 
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Nick*Z

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In deference to the team at Fox, I cannot agree with the concept of "cavalier custodianship."

Their vaults are filled with poorly produced film elements, created by their predecessors over forty years ago, at which time the originals were junked.

Film elements are organic, meaning they continue to change, which means that a telecine produced for TV, and probably used for home video, would have been done before the elements hit the condition that they're now in. That deals with color.

There is no going back.

For the team to take even the most basic attempt toward a complete digitization of the programming, ie CRI / 3-strip, would take an investment of around 12 million dollars, which wouldn't alleviate the base problem.

Let's not malign the folks that are trying to help solve that problem.

RAH
Dear Robert:

Never said Fox had not done stellar work 'ever' on Blu-ray. I'm just not willing to concede that they've done their due diligence on these aforementioned titles. So, although I acknowledge, and further to appreciate fine efforts when they are exerted, I'm not willing to give our gold stars or even a pass when I believe even the basic work hasn't been done. And I don't feel my comments were anything except criticism out of frustration for these releases looking so awful - especially after we have all waited for them to surface in hi-def for so long. The proof herein is out there for all to see. No going back. How true. How about moving forward? Not maligning anyone currently working at the studio. Just not impressed by these efforts, that's all. I don't think most will be either.
 

Will Krupp

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All I can say is this:

When you have a blu-ray released in the UK in 2014 that looks like this:
800__the_gangs_all_here_X08_blu-ray__blu-ray_.jpg


and two years later you have a domestic release that looks like this:
800__gangs_all_here_08_blu-ray__blu-ray_.jpg


It's not JUST about the best available elements. CHOICES are being made.
 
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lark144

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All I can say is this:

When you have a blu-ray released in the UK in 2014 that looks like this:
View attachment 60509

and two years later you have a domestic release that looks like this:
View attachment 60510

It's not JUST about the best available elements. CHOICES are being made.
Will, I re-watched the Eureka THE GANG'S ALL HERE the other night, and while in some sequences the color is bright (thought not in any way comparable to the way it looked in Technicolor, which I was fortunate enough to see a number of times at the Beekman in the early 70's & also in P-town in the 80's, where young men were literally rolling down the aisles during "The Lady in the Tutti-Frutti Hat" number) in many scenes, for instance, the opening and closing numbers; the color is very badly faded in ways that CRIs have a tendency to do.

There's only so much one can do with fading elements. TT decided that going for a slightly darker look, which would be closer to the original Technicolor than the candy-colored brightness of the Eureka, would be preferable. I know there are many on this forum who agree with that look. But really both Blu-Rays are highly problematic. I'm happy to have a copy.
 
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Will Krupp

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There's only so much one can do with fading elements. TT decided that going for a slightly darker look, which would be closer to the original Technicolor than the candy-colored brightness of the Eureka, would be preferable. I know there are many on this forum who agree with that look. But really both Blu-Rays are highly problematic. I'm happy to have a copy.
It doesn't matter which one you prefer. It doesn't matter which one I prefer. It doesn't matter which look any of us on here "agrees" with. It's never going to be accurate to the original Technicolor anyway, so why not watch whichever one you like? It's always going to be some sort of compromise and nobody's wrong in choosing which look appeals to them.

My point is simply that choices are being made as to what "look" to go with. It's not just about the state of the elements, but the choices made when the transfers are produced. We have very few of these Fox titles to compare on blu-ray and this is a rare chance to contrast the differences between what is being done for the transfers given to TT and what is being done elsewhere.
 
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Robert Harris

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It doesn't matter which one you prefer. It doesn't matter which one I prefer. It doesn't matter which look any of us on here "agrees" with. It's never going to be accurate to the original Technicolor anyway, so why not watch whichever one you like? It's always going to be some sort of compromise and nobody's wrong in choosing which look appeals to them.

My point is simply that choices are being made as to what "look" to go with. It's not just about the state of the elements, but the choices made when the transfers are produced. We have very few of these Fox titles to compare on blu-ray and this is a rare chance to contrast the differences between what is being done for the transfers given to TT and what is being done elsewhere.
The only viable references for these films are original prints (mostly 4-strip survivors), along with some beautiful 3-strip re-prints from the late ‘60s - early ‘70s.

Nothing else matters
 

Nick*Z

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Agree with Will here. Preference is decidedly not the issue. And what, after all, was the point releasing these to hi-def when the distinctions noted have yielded far worse results in 1080p than 720p. Pin-Up Girl on Blu looks virtually identical to Pin-Up Girl on DVD. Hello, Frisco, Hello looks considerably worse on Blu-ray than DVD. So, the only point I was making is that there is no point to either hi-def release. Not at $29.99 plus shipping per title when the DVD's still retail on Amazon for between $4 and $11 dollars and, in 'Frisco's' case, look superior in all regards. We're talking about quality here, and improvements to be had. Not perfection. Forget about perfection. With Fox vintage catalog nothing close to perfection is possible any longer on a good many titles. And again, I could list the stellar work Fox has done on their vintage product, as many examples are readily available for perusal and enjoyment. But this discussion is not about praise-worthy catalog releases, but these three releases in particular - two of which are decided NOT up to snuff. That is my final word on the matter.
 

roxy1927

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I got the TT 3 Coins in the Fountain because who doesn't want to see Rome in the 50s in Cinemascope? But having read no reviews and now reading what Fox did to its legacy did I throw my money away? Maybe I'll just keep it wrapped for the time being.
 

Will Krupp

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I got the TT 3 Coins in the Fountain because who doesn't want to see Rome in the 50s in Cinemascope? But having read no reviews and now reading what Fox did to its legacy did I throw my money away? Maybe I'll just keep it wrapped for the time being.
I don't believe anything shot on safety stock was affected by the purge and THREE COINS got a very good review from our own Matt Hough. I wouldn't worry.
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/three-coins-in-the-fountain-blu-ray-review/
 

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roxy1927

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I know Silk Stockings extremely well. It is one of my favorite films. Now people are saying for these Fox musicals you might as well stick with the original DVDs. Same thing. I was really looking forward to all these Grable, Payne, Faye, Ameche, Miranda confections on bluray. Now I guess Natalie is spinning in her grave.

Hough gave Pin Up Girl a 2.5. That's dreadful.

By the way Louis B said to Minelli and Kelly 'Why can't you make your movies look like a Fox musical?' I guess we'll never really know what a Fox musical looked like.
 
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Will Krupp

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Now people are saying for these Fox musicals you might as well stick with the original DVDs. Same thing. I was really looking forward to all these Grable, Payne, Faye, Ameche, Miranda confections on bluray.
We're not saying you should stick with DVDs on all Fox titles, not even close. There is an issue with FRISCO that might make some people prefer the look of the DVD but nothing about the condition of Fox musicals allows a blanket statement like that to be made about all of them. Some are just better than others and (at least I think) we are all in agreement about that. Just look at reviews before you purchase and then decide if you think it's worth it to upgrade.
 

Will Krupp

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I'm surprised that nobody's commented on "Down Argentine Way". It certainly looks like it came from an IB Technicolor print.
I honestly mention that so much that I'm afraid people are sick of hearing me say it, lol. I've always thought it's the best looking Fox Technicolor transfer out there.
 
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