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Tino

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Just picked this up today. Saw bits of it years ago so am looking forward to this Criterion bluray.
 

English Patient

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Heaven's Gate has always been one of my favorite films, although to me it has deep flaws that are often hard to ignore. Most of my issues with the movie lie with the script and the pacing, but the fabulous cinematography and production design nearly offset those flaws. This film rivals Lawrence of Arabia in sheer beauty. And the Harvard prologue is breathtaking filmmaking - the shots of the lovely girl (Roseanne Vela) gazing out of the college's upper windows by candlelight are, to me, the most beautiful shots I've ever seen on film. The Criterion blu-ray's revised color timing works very well, but it's a tribute to Cimino's and Vilmos Zsigmond's visual talents that even when the film had the original, slightly sepia overtones it was still gorgeous. I don't think anyone will regret buying this blu-ray.
 

titch

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Adrian: I heard the main thing they had to remove from the doc were film clips, so hopefully the interviews are all intact. I put together my own DVD of FINAL CUT using the youtube version. It came to around 75-minutes, but then again I edited out the redundant "coming up" montages that were put before where the commercial breaks would be.

Vincent
Just bumping this old thread, as I saw the YouTube version of the uncut documentary of Final Cut for the first time and I was taken aback about how candid everyone interviewed were - from the production team to the fired United Artists executives. I read Steven Bach's book when the Criterion disc came out, and of course, it is a classic and gripping read. However, the documentary is just as good, as it provides viewpoints from so many involved (including Steven Bach), except the director. The documentary was made in 2004 and many of the points set forth about then are even more valid today. The opening weekend making or breaking a movie; individual critics may longer not hold the same power as Vincent Canby, but collectively, social media and Rotten Tomatoes now play a major part in whether a film can survive its initial weekend. The statement in the documentary that only unforgivable sin in Hollywood being a studio or director delivering a flop might not be quite as valid now in the #MeToo era, but Darren Arronofsy's "mother!" and Alexander Payne's "Downsizing" certainly came under a lot of flak recently for being expensive "personal visions" that were box office and critical failures.

And I enjoyed Heaven's Gate, by the way! The documentary only made me appreciate the film more because, as it pointed out, Michael Cimino used every single minute and every single dollar trying to make his masterpiece. He wasn't holed up in his trailer watching TV. It was great that Criterion managed to get this project done while Michael Cimino was still alive to do it.

 

Vincent_P

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There's a terrific new region B "Mediabook" Blu-ray release of this that includes not just Cimino's slightly recut "Director's Cut" from 2012, but a beautiful looking HD presentation of the short version on its own Blu-ray. While I much prefer the long version, the short cut is worth having for fans of the film. It's a radical re-edit, not just shortened but scenes are re-arranged in order and there are also alternate takes used and come scenes that are completely unique to it. This version also carries over all of the Criterion supplements, as well as the interviews with Vilmos Zsigmond and Jeff Bridges from the U.K. release.

Interestingly, the HD master of the short cut doesn't have any of the optical "intertitles" indicating changes of locale and time, but it DOES include a 4-minute "Overture" prior to the beginning of the opening credits! Sound is 5.1 DTS-HDMA, so I'm guessing there were probably some 70mm prints of the short cut made? It does't sound like a faux 5.1 remix. It sounds really good in fact.

If anybody's interested, I ordered my copy from here: http://www.diabolikdvd.com/product/heavens-gate-le-mediabook-dvd-blu-ray-combo-region-b/

Vincent
 
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titch

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There's a terrific new region B "Mediabook" Blu-ray release of this that includes not just Cimino's slightly recut "Director's Cut" from 2012, but a beautiful looking HD presentation of the short version on its own Blu-ray. While I much prefer the long version, the short cut is worth having for fans of the film. It's a radical re-edit, not just shortened but scenes are re-arranged in order and there are also alternate takes used and come scenes that are completely unique to it. This version also carries over all of the Criterion supplements, as well as the interviews with Vilmos Zsigmond and Jeff Bridges from the U.K. release.

Interestingly, the HD master of the short cut doesn't have any of the optical "intertitles" indicating changes of locale and time, but it DOES include a 4-minute "Overture" prior to the beginning of the opening credits! Sound is 5.1 DTS-HDMA, so I'm guessing there were probably some 70mm prints of the short cut made? It does't sound like a faux 5.1 remix. It sounds really good in fact.

If anybody's interested, I ordered my copy from here: http://www.diabolikdvd.com/product/heavens-gate-le-mediabook-dvd-blu-ray-combo-region-b/

Vincent
Someone previously posted another, very radical, re-cut done by Steven Soderbergh - it is under two hours and works well, in my opinion (although I do like the very long Criterion cut). Among other things, he switched the "Harvard" scenes from the beginning, to the end. An interesting experiment!

http://extension765.com/soderblogh/16-heavens-gate-the-butchers-cut
 

Malcolm Bmoor

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so I'm guessing there were probably some 70mm prints of the short cut made?

I saw the short version in 70mm at the Odeon Haymarket London. It was the first I saw of the film and quite a long time before the long version was shown at the NFT.

I bought the Blu-ray and, of course, the dialogue is more intelligable (the scene with the stationmaster is the test) but I'm of the opinion that life is too short to see Heaven's Gate again.

Q - storm of protest from members who adore it ......
 

JoshZ

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Interestingly, the HD master of the short cut doesn't have any of the optical "intertitles" indicating changes of locale and time, but it DOES include a 4-minute "Overture" prior to the beginning of the opening credits! Sound is 5.1 DTS-HDMA, so I'm guessing there were probably some 70mm prints of the short cut made? It does't sound like a faux 5.1 remix. It sounds really good in fact.

Does the short cut have the original dusty browns and yellows, or the revisionist colors Cimino imposed on the Director's Cut?
 

Vincent_P

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BTW, I saw the actual original NYC 70mm premiere print of the original cut projected at the Library of Congress a couple years back, and it doesn't look as "brown and yellow" as earlier video versions. The color is more "pastel" than the Criterion, but it had color. It looked gorgeous, in fact (the print was in very good shape and hadn't faded).

Vincent
 

JoshZ

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BTW, I saw the actual original NYC 70mm premiere print of the original cut projected at the Library of Congress a couple years back, and it doesn't look as "brown and yellow" as earlier video versions. The color is more "pastel" than the Criterion, but it had color. It looked gorgeous, in fact (the print was in very good shape and hadn't faded).

I've never seen the movie theatrically so I'll take your word for it. However, I will note that Roger Ebert's pan review from 1981 complained about a lack of colors in the photography.

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/heavens-gate-1981

"Cimino also shoots his picture in a maddening soft focus that makes the people and places in this movie sometimes almost impossible to see. And then he goes after the colors. There’s not a single primary color in this movie, only dingy washed-out sepia tones.

I know, I know: He’s trying to demystify the West, and all those other things hotshot directors try to do when they don’t really want to make a Western. But this movie is a study in wretched excess. It is so smoky, so dusty, so foggy, so unfocused and so brownish yellow that you want to try Windex on the screen. A director is in deep trouble when we do not even enjoy the primary act of looking at his picture."


Perhaps the 35mm and 70mm prints had different timing?
 

Carl David

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If I might make a single suggestion regarding this Criterion release of Michael Cimino's slightly changed director's cut of Heaven's Gate, it would be to go in with no pre-cognitions.

This is the first time that the (almost) original cut of the film has been seen in decades in a quality version, and there are myriads of extraordinary sights and sounds that are offered by the film.

If this epic suffers from a single negative force, it would probably be its tendency toward the elephantine. Everything is huge. In a way it reminds me of David O. Selznick's 1946 Duel in the Sun, even if this later epic bests Duel by 86 minutes.

The questions that many of you, after hearing about the film as a "disaster," may be asking yourselves, are "Is it worth my time? Is it worth the purchase?"

My answer would be a resounding Yes!

Look past the size of the production, and an equally huge story comes to the fore. Today, three decades after it's original release, and a disastrous 70 minute re-cut down to 149 minutes, we finally have a viable representation of the film on Blu-ray.

And that is a major event.

With the original negative used for the re-cutting, and previous home video versions taken from a used 70mm print, we finally have the opportunity to see the film with Vilmos Zsigmond's cinematography coming to the fore. With an image harvested from a set of complete separation masters, the original look of the film still shines through. Rich blacks, with a superb gray scale and equally rich shadow detail, tells us that this was a well-made set of sep masters. Unfortunately, this doesn't always occur.

Criterion's support of the project also needs to be noted, as without their perseverance, and especially that of Criterion's Lee Kline, this might never have been seen.

Audio was been re-mixed from the original 6-track mags down to 5.1, and is a treat for any high-end audio system.

With sales on their way for the holiday season, Amazon's current $35 price may come down, but the point should be made, that even at that number, this Blu-ray is a steal.

Heaven's Gate is a film that must be seen, and evaluated without the baggage that has surrounded it for decades.

Image - 5

Audio - 5

Very Highly Recommended.

RAH

Have just seen this film for the first time and I consider it a masterpiece of cinema.

However, I did notice that the image on the screen seemed to lack focus and was wondering if this was the creators' intent.

Do you know if this was the case?

If so, what was the process to achieve that desired effect?
 

Ignacio

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A few years ago, in 2011, I was able to see an excellent 35mm print of the premiere long cut, with Intermission. It was not the slightly edited director's cut than came out later in 2012, and it had the original & optical Dolby Stereo. If featured a color scheme very similar to that of the (then) existing DVD of the long cut: earthy tones, yellows, browns, sepias, etc. and only a hint of the rest of the palette, which was definitely was there, but not as obvious as is in the version prepared by Michael Cimino himself from the separation masters. My guess is that he and Vilmos Zsigmond shot the film through Double Fog filters and a lot of smoke, and then the color timed the film to its original warm tones (I mean, the lighting was more neutral in color than you may think). Which enabled Cimino to push the other colors during his digital color correction.

Of course, there were some scenes, such as the "Heaven's Gate" dancing scene, that very really brown and warm to begin with, and they still are in the Cimino version.

The print wasn't new but it was incredibly good, with very nice contrasts, a general softness, film textures and subtleties than I have never seen represented well in any home video version, and I don't think that can be in a digital format (the same happened to me in 2001, when I saw a new strucked print of "Barry Lyndon" with Dolby Digital 5.1 sound, which looked amazing and with a low-contrast and grain texture that I've never seen replicated since in the Blu-rays).

Even the Dolby sound was great. The track was very inmersive, I still remember how loud and real sounded the early scene with Kris Kristofferson crossing the street at the crowded town, the sounds of the railway engine... the dialogue was easy to follow and understand... and when the movie opened in 1980 they critisized the sound mix nearly as much as they complained to the cinematography or pacing of the movie!
 
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Ignacio

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I did notice that the image on the screen seemed to lack focus and was wondering if this was the creators' intent.

Do you know if this was the case?

If so, what was the process to achieve that desired effect?

"Heaven's Gate" was mostly shot through smoke, Double Fog filters (which don't double the effect of the fog, they are misnamed, as they are a combination of regular Fogs and Low-Contrasts) and about 95% of the film, on anamorphic zoom lenses (Panavised versions of the Cooke 20-100mm and 25-250mm). The smoke and Double Fogs soften the image and reduce the contrast (a contrasty image appears to be sharper, so a lower contrast increasses the appareance of softness). And the anamorphic zoom lenses, which were a favourite of Vilmos Zsigmond, are very soft as well, specially when used wide-open, which tends to happen a lot as they are or were slow to begin with (T4.5 and T5.6). The film stock was push-processed for sure, which doesn't help sharpness either. And most likely, flashed as well to reduce the contrast even more and open up the shadows.

So you have techniques applied that soften the image (smoke and Double Fogs), pushing, flashing, etc. on top of very soft lenses, and you get this soft or lack of focus effect.

That was the intent, to carry the audiences to the old west. I find it works nicely here (as in Vilmos Zsigmond's previous "McCabe and Mrs. Miller", which has a similar look) but it was detested by critics in 1980. Vilmos went on to shoot Brian de Palma's "Blow Out" after this, with prime lenses and no filtration, to get a much sharper look and avoid getting hammered again.
 
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Carl David

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"Heaven's Gate" was mostly shot through smoke, Double Fog filters (which don't double the effect of the fog, they are misnamed, as they are a combination of regular Fogs and Low-Contrasts) and about 95% of the film, on anamorphic zoom lenses (Panavised versions of the Cooke 20-100mm and 25-250mm). The smoke and Double Fogs soften the image and reduce the contrast (a contrasty image appears to be sharper, so a lower contrast increasses the appareance of softness). And the anamorphic zoom lenses, which were a favourite of Vilmos Zsigmond, are very soft as well, specially when used wide-open, which tends to happen a lot as they are or were slow to begin with (T4.5 and T5.6). The film stock was push-processed for sure, which doesn't help sharpness either. And most likely, flashed as well to reduce the contrast even more and open up the shadows.

So you have techniques applied that soften the image (smoke and Double Fogs), pushing, flashing, etc. on top of very soft lenses, and you get this soft or lack of focus effect.

That was the intent, to carry the audiences to the old west. I find it works nicely here (as in Vilmos Zsigmond's previous "McCabe and Mrs. Miller", which has a similar look) but it was detested by critics in 1980. Vilmos went on to shoot Brian de Palma's "Blow Out" after this, with prime lenses and no filtration, to get a much sharper look and avoid getting hammered again.
Thanks for your input.

I need to watch the movie a few more times to make up my mind on it.

It's the only creative choice of the movie I am not sure about.

Those stunning views of Montana should be emphasized but found myself having to really focus my eyes to try and admire the magnificence of the vista views throughout the film.
 

Ignacio

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The approach was more to make you part of the period, than impress with the vistas. After all, despite its great settings, the film it’s a rather intimate story (which was part of the criticism that it suffered, as it was over produced, over scheduled and over budget).

The first time that I saw it, I felt so immersed by the film, that was kind of “surprised” when I saw Panavision’s Panaflex cameras (which came out in the 1970’s) in the BTS stills from the film, as I had the impression that I had witnessed a piece of the real period, well before Panavision or its cameras existed!!
 
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Carl David

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The approach was more to make you part of the period, than impress with the vistas. After all, despite its great settings, the film it’s a rather intimate story (which was part of the criticism that it suffered, as it was over produced, over scheduled and over budget).

The first time that I saw it, I felt so immersed by the film, that was kind of “surprised” when I saw Panavision’s Panaflex cameras (which came out in the 1970’s) in the BTS stills from the film, as I had the impression that I had witnessed a piece of the real period, well before Panavision or its cameras existed!!
Yes.

Understood the reasons for doing it.

But think it was not necessary to do that.

Don't think it would have made a difference by shooting in a more conventional manner.
 

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