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A Few Words About A few words about...™ HDR -- in 4k UHD Blu-ray

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Robert Harris, Jun 7, 2016.

  1. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    There seems to be a misunderstanding, at least in on-line discussions, as to what HDR (High Dynamic Range) actually is...

    and might not be.

    It is NOT an inherent part of the 4k UHD package.

    It is in no way necessary toward the enjoyment of 4k, either in the home, or elsewhere.

    HDR is an option, much like ordering a different kind of leather of fabric for your new car's interior.

    It's nothing new -- been around for years.

    If generally NOT a part of the design of a film, with most HDR entering the picture, no pun intended, during post.

    "Wouldn't look neat if those flames were Really bright orange..."

    It's added the same way that 3D is added in post, to the majority of 3D productions.

    It has no relevance to production photography.

    It should not be included as a function for classic films, unless the filmmakers have a desire to re-visit, and create
    a new version, a re-imagining.

    It will not work well with most classic films, and can be problematic to those that have needed restoration based upon fade.

    Want to see 2001, or Lawrence, Ben-Hur, The Godfather, The Magnificent Seven, or Elvira Madigan in 4k?

    No problem.

    We're ready for it, and there's no reason why those films can't be released, except those which don't fit on the
    current sized discs.

    And NONE of them should be released with HDR.

    Every UHD release does NOT need HDR, nor should they have it.

    If we can clear the airwaves of mis and dis-information regarding HDR, things would be easier.

    RAH
     
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  2. Stephen_J_H

    Stephen_J_H All Things Film Junkie

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    I shudder at the thought of The Godfather with HDR applied.
     
  3. Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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    I just hope the studios get it.

    I am fearful we'll see classics only with HDR on UHD BD. I feel like HDR has become such a strong marketing feature that they feel they need to have every release HDR'd.

    As I mentioned in another thread, one can try and strip out the HDR and map to SDR to still get the wider color gamut, but this poses a risk for other problems as I understand it. The tonal mapping has to be applied correctly.
     
  4. Billy Batson

    Billy Batson Cinematographer

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    A well timed post. I can see people insisting on HDR with their 4K, without really knowing what it is (I'm not sure I know). If it adds something to the photography, then I'm not interested, I just want the best of the original image (well, the best that the budget for the project will allow). It seems odd having something that seems to add a bit of omph to the colour when so many movies have muted colour these days (at least they do it well now, unlike the early days of digital grading).
     
  5. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    The execs who make those decisions at the studios are reasonably savvy, and one must presume they would listen carefully to what the asset protection execs tell them.

    I'm really not anticipating a problem.
     
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  6. Dr Griffin

    Dr Griffin Cinematographer

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    Aww, I was looking forward to Lawrence with Hugger Orange sand.
     
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  7. DavidJ

    DavidJ Producer

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    Ooh, it would make the part when El Aurens puts out the match so much more effective if that orange was really bright. ;)
     
  8. PaulDA

    PaulDA Cinematographer

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    HDR aside, in most sizes of display in relation to seating distance, 4K alone seems an insufficient reason to upgrade (unless one needs an additional display or the current display dies and needs replacing). However, the wider colour gamut available on most (though, apparently, not all--or not to the same degree on each model/brand) 4K TVs is something that even classic films can benefit from, correct? In other words, if a UHD release of a classic film would not benefit from HDR treatment, would it benefit (or some of them) from a disc mastered with a wider colour gamut than what we've had so far on 1080p releases/displays?
     
  9. Message #9 of 80 Jun 7, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
    Mike2001

    Mike2001 Second Unit

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    The wider color gamut is part of "HDR". I have a feeling this thread will be due for a reassessment at some point. How many more cases of:

    will it take before the reassessment occurs? (Quote from the Ghostbusters thread.)
     
  10. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Sony's WCG releases were interesting, as I'm not certain that the entire proprietary system necessary for playback ever arrived outside of Sony.

    Nothing wrong with WCG, btw, MOHDR.

    RAH
     
  11. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Ghostbusters also had HDR, but the overall image was magnificent, as long as one accepts grain, as a naturally occurring entity.
     
  12. PaulDA

    PaulDA Cinematographer

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    So, to make sure I understand, we can't have HDR without the wider colour gamut, but we can have the wider colour gamut without HDR, AND classic films, if reissued on 4K media, can benefit from the wide colour gamut without untoward deviation from original intent?
     
  13. Message #13 of 80 Jun 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
    Mike2001

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    I made that statement based on the fact that for a display to be called "HDR Compatible" by CEA, it has to be able to process the HDR10 media profile and that the HDR10 media profile, per Wikipedia, "HDR10 Media Profile uses the Rec. 2020 color space, SMPTE ST 2084, and a bit depth of 10-bits." and the SMPTE ST 2084 piece of that is the transfer function that brings in the capability of expanded dynamic range. The UHD bluray specification has all of the elements of the HDR10 media profile, but does not tie them together the way the TV designation does. The argument you are making about benefiting from the wider color space without applying a heavy hand on dynamic range is the same one I was trying to make in Mr Harris's Joy thread. What I took out of that discussion is that the current workflow for restoration uses tools and references established in the REC 709 color space and that a look up table is applied to the result to map it into the theatrical P3 color space (which sits half way between REC 709 and REC 2020). The basis for my reassessment statement is that in the fairly near future, we should have calibration standards, tools and references that match up with HDR10, since that is the way TVs will be displaying the signal, and that if the workflow occurs in that space (with transfer functions back to the older specifications) we could get a better match to the original intended looks.

    Once your TV is calibrated to HDR10, I don't know what a disk would look like that has the REC2020 color space but not the SMPTE ST 2084 transfer function.
     
  14. Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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    From what I have read, the higher the DCI coverage, the more you can benefit from wider color gamut (which only makes sense). There are very few displays that do 100% DCI coverage as of now, but I imagine that will change. I've read the results are not real good with DCI coverage below 93-94% if I recall. Many UHD displays today are below 90%. The new JVC RS500/600 e-shift4 projectors do something like 98-99%. I only point this out as I was considering the RS500, but then I hear the HDR can be really wonky on them, so I decided to just hold tight for a native UHD projector and enjoy my 1080p RS4810.

    Keep in mind though, UHD BDs actually contain a rec 2020 container where the DCI sits in. The Rec 2020 container is presumably there for when content is actually mastered at that level years down the road.
     
  15. PMF

    PMF Producer

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    I recently visited a designated home theater store that displays the $15,000 Sony 4K Projector in a well-darkened room. Not that I could yet afford it; but I wanted to sample a bit and brought my own BD's for reference. I brought Criterion's "The Kid", "Spartacus", "My Fair Lady" and "The Godfather". Of the various scenes sampled for either sound or picture, all were stunning. Even the 3 "take-it-all-for- granted" long-time salespeople were beside themselves to the point where they asked me where I was able to get my hands on these discs. "Through Amazon and Best Buy", said I. No kidding, they actually thought that I had some inside connection to have such vividly perfect discs within my possesion. But then we sampled "The Godfather" and we saw something not right. The images from the opening wedding scene seemed odd and float-like; not real, not at all natural nor, as you would say, "like film".

    I wonder, why it is that "The Kid", "Spartacus" and "MFL" all appeared exactly as they should, why "The Godfather" had the reverse effect? Does the 4K projector require special settings based on each individual BD? Or is this something else?

    Thanks,
    PMF
     
  16. Message #16 of 80 Jun 8, 2016
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    Dr Griffin

    Dr Griffin Cinematographer

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    Deleted.
     
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  17. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    How were you uprezzing the data?

    Projector or player, and if player, which one?
     
  18. Message #18 of 80 Jun 8, 2016
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    PMF

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    Answers to these questions are unknown on my end; but I will phone these gentleman and report back.
    I'm surprised that they weren't asking themselves these very same questions, as I knew it had nothing to do with the BD, itself.
     
  19. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Whatever software was providing the uprez, may not have known what to do with the burned out "Ansco chrome" shots.
     
  20. Mark-P

    Mark-P Producer

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    And yet it appears that Warner has plans for HDR-revisionism on a bunch of fairly recent and one not-so-recent title. According to The Digital Bits, Argo, The Town, Pacific Rim, Man of Steel, and Mad Max (1979) have been announced for 4K UHD + HDR.
     

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