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A Few Words About A few words about...™ For a Few Dollars More - in Blu-ray

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Robert Harris, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. Message #61 of 142 Mar 29, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
    Jordan Krug

    Jordan Krug Stunt Coordinator

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    Still trying to reach some conclusions on the missing footage based on researching past releases.

    Here is a comparison of the sections of the beating scene that were cut between a variety of releases:



    Grey=missing footage.

    As far as I can tell, the missing dialog portion was removed from American releases in 1997. It was always a part of the 1980's uncut releases. It was also part of the 1991 laserdisc which was a scan of a heavily cut 1967 UA release print (other sections of the beating were cut but not this dialog). As far as home video releases are concerned, the dialog only disappeared in 1997 when MGM tried to blend the Italian and English versions. It has been missing from all North American releases since.

    Apparently this scene was originally dubbed into three different languages. Italian in 1965, and English and German in 1967. It appears on every Italian and German home video release from the 1980's until now, but is not currently part of the Italian negative.
     
  2. Peter Neski

    Peter Neski Screenwriter

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    what version are you talking about ? not the Blue Ray Box I have from Fox and MGM
     
  3. lark144

    lark144 Supporting Actor

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    I think a German Blu-Ray. Not the one I have, as that matches the transfer in the MGM MAN WITH NO NAME box. There's been so many threads and so many posts on these three Leone films, not to mention European releases, that it gets confusing.
     
  4. Jordan Krug

    Jordan Krug Stunt Coordinator

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    Absolutely. I think the easiest way to sum up the issues with FAFDM is this - at the onset of home video, the film was released in the U.S. and Italy completely uncut, remained that way for about a decade and has been losing bits of footage since.
     
  5. Peter Apruzzese

    Peter Apruzzese Producer

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    I guess I'll have to go back and ask again, since I'm confused as ever. Does this new release reflect accurately the content of 1967 UA theatrical release in the USA? I'm only interested in it if that's what it is.
     
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  6. Message #66 of 142 Mar 30, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
    Jordan Krug

    Jordan Krug Stunt Coordinator

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    To the best of my knowledge based on various home video releases collected over the years:

    First, UA/the Italians created a fully uncut English dubbed print master. This is the version that was released on home video throughout the 80's.

    Secondly, UA trimmed that master for 1967 release prints, removing mention of the name Manco, trimming shots etc to reduce running time. However the dialog currently missing from the beating scene was not trimmed. This version was also the one released by mgm on home video from 1991-1997

    Thirdly, in 1997 MGM acquired an Italian print element and created a new version that re-incorporated some of the material missing from 1991, but then removed other material that hadn't been cut before, even in the 1967 UA release prints. This is the version that Kino has released.

    The German blu is the 1997 cut, however it reincorporates all of the material cut after the 80's.

    The Italian releases remained relatively unchanged although once they rescanned the negative for HD there were small bits of footage missing/damaged and the negative seems to be missing portions of the beating scene including the dialog portion previously mentioned.
     
  7. Peter Apruzzese

    Peter Apruzzese Producer

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    OK, that appears to be a "No".
     
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  8. Jordan Krug

    Jordan Krug Stunt Coordinator

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    Correct. That release version would be cut even more but in different spots.
     
  9. haineshisway

    haineshisway Producer

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    I guess the follow-up question that must be asked in order for Pete to get the answer he needs: Have you personally seen an American UA 1967 print and, if so, did it reflect what you are writing. Or are you making guesses, is there written proof - if someone hasn't actually referenced a 1967 print of this film, then I'm not sure any of this can be taken seriously.
     
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  10. Message #70 of 142 Mar 30, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
    Jordan Krug

    Jordan Krug Stunt Coordinator

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    When MGM did the 1997 version they produced extras on the DVD that specifically pointed out all the shots cut for the 1967 release prints. All of those corresponded to the previous home video release (1991-1996). Some of the shots cut also had specific reasoning (I. E. not naming the man with no name). In the extra they also point out the lines of dialog at the end of the 1967 beating scene as being "unrestored" to the 1997 version. You'd figure if they produced entire extras about it then they must have been telling the truth.

    I have seen the film projected but my memory is not good enough to tell me what version it was. It was definitely a well worn print.
     
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  11. haineshisway

    haineshisway Producer

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    Well, as everyone keeps saying, the Leones are a baffling affair.
     
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  12. Osato

    Osato Producer

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    Try try try again.

    Seriously I may have to pick up these new Blu ray versions

    That way I will ensure the UHd releases come out soon.
     
  13. haineshisway

    haineshisway Producer

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    Oh, hilarity at the "other place." Caps from capsaholic have been posted and now they "experts" are now crying "slathered in DNR" about this transfer. These people are, well, you know. Everyone has been pleased with this transfer who has actually seen it. And people still sit there and insist there's nothing wrong with caps. And yet... we have "slathered in DNR."
     
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  14. Billy Batson

    Billy Batson Producer

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    A lot of people insist on seeing grain, although they never saw it at the cinema - & that's if a lot of the complainers are old enough to have seen these films in a cinema in the first place. I can remember noticing grain only in the late seventies, when film labs were using the cheapest print stock they could get their hands on. I worked in a film lab for 22 years & if we projected a film & saw a lot of grain, then something was wrong, usually underexposure. People forget that negative was manufactured to be printed from, & the print would take care of the grain, & people who know what they're doing take this into consideration when working with a scanned negative.
     
  15. Robin9

    Robin9 Producer

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    Thank you very much for that. I don't like grain and my memory is that in the 1960s new prints of new films did not have much grain. I am and have been extremely sceptical about those people who masquerade as experts on how films should look but are not old enough to have seen the films when they first came out.
     
  16. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    I can hardly remember what I ate for dinner last night so there is no way I can remember how a film looked 50 or so years ago with or without film grain.
     
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  17. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    One of the reasons that TS (35/2) worked as well as it did, was because the dye transfer process, whereby the printing matrices were produced optically, and not via contact, was that it was inherently soft. Apparent sharpness came into play because of the heightened contrast, but grain was subtly reduced
     
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  18. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    Per the negative conformation, shots not exposed to the matrices, do not necessarily mean they were deleted from the OCN
     
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  19. OliverK

    OliverK Producer

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    Thanks for pointing this out, just had a look at the caps-a-holic caps and I will pass.

    As for the caps I have two of the other versions that are captured on caps-a-holic (Italian and German) and their caps are spot-on. Indeed not much grain to be seen on the caps of the Kino version so why shoot the messenger when it was Kino who decided to use grain reduction/DNR.
     
  20. Robert Harris

    Robert Harris Archivist
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    ?
     
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