A Few Words About A few words about...™ Fistful of Dollars -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Joseph Goodman]

And that's not even getting in to L'Immagine Ritrovata's obsession with grading everything to an Andres Serrano sculpture-like color cast...

 

[Vincent_P]

I'm pretty sure Kodak didn't offer a discount "cheap filmstock" in the 1960s. These films would have been shot on the same 35mm negative stock as any other films of that era, albeit in the Techniscope format. I also don't think the cameras were "cheap", either.

Vincent

 

[Robert Harris]

I'm pretty sure Kodak didn't offer a discount "cheap filmstock" in the 1960s. These films would have been shot on the same 35mm negative stock as any other films of that era, albeit in the Techniscope format. I also don't think the cameras were "cheap", either.

Vincent

Only two basic stocks. 5250 and 51.

 

[Jordan Krug]

Hi Vincent, I may have not used the right wording, but yes, it was a cheaper way of filming on a smaller exposed part of the frame. I love the look of these films, but it was a specialized process which in the home video analog days made it harder to deal with the negative. You're right, I over-criticized the cameras. Hopefully I can edit my post.

(pasted from panavision website):

2 perf cinematography originated in 1966 when Technicolor introduced their Techniscope format, which gained notoriety for its use on the Italian “spaghetti westerns” such as Sergio Leone’s “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly”. Leone used the 2 perf format because it could save 50% off film raw stock & processing costs. The 2 perf 2.40:1 frame is significantly smaller than the 4 perf anamorphic 2.40:1 frame in terms surface area on the film negative, but benefits from the ability to use spherical lenses which tend to be faster, sharper, and offered in a wider selection of focal lengths.

Specifically on FOD, there were numerous problems with the filming process, according to Leone scholar Prof Frayling: "Leone had a very clear idea of where he wanted to place the camera but he was forced to print lots of the same shot - they were always having problems; the lab scratches one, they lost three others."

So that's where I got the "cheap" idea from, but it was more from the production side I guess, not the cameras.

Great article on the 2 perf process and Leone:

http://www.arri.com/news/news/once-upon-a-time-in-2-perforation/

 

[Vincent_P]

Hi Vincent, I may have not used the right wording, but yes, it was a cheaper way of filming on a smaller exposed part of the frame. I love the look of these films, but it was a specialized process which in the home video analog days made it harder to deal with the negative. You're right, I over-criticized the cameras. Hopefully I can edit my post.

(pasted from panavision website):

2 perf cinematography originated in 1966 when Technicolor introduced their Techniscope format, which gained notoriety for its use on the Italian “spaghetti westerns” such as Sergio Leone’s “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly”. Leone used the 2 perf format because it could save 50% off film raw stock & processing costs. The 2 perf 2.40:1 frame is significantly smaller than the 4 perf anamorphic 2.40:1 frame in terms surface area on the film negative, but benefits from the ability to use spherical lenses which tend to be faster, sharper, and offered in a wider selection of focal lengths.

Specifically on FOD, there were numerous problems with the filming process, according to Leone scholar Prof Frayling: "Leone had a very clear idea of where he wanted to place the camera but he was forced to print lots of the same shot - they were always having problems; the lab scratches one, they lost three others."

So that's where I got the "cheap" idea from, but it was more from the production side I guess, not the cameras.

Great article on the 2 perf process and Leone:

http://www.arri.com/news/news/once-upon-a-time-in-2-perforation/

I understand, I just think people get the wrong idea when things like "cheap film stock" and "cheap cameras" are thrown around. It leads to a lot of misinformation being repeated ad-infinitum on the internet and beyond. Somebody reads your post, then they post elsewhere that "cheap filmstock and cameras" were used, then "cheap filmstock and cameras" gets reposted again and again elsewhere and beyond over and over again and it ends up becoming the de-facto story regarding the history of these films on the internet (i.e., "1.66:1 was the European flat widescreen aspect ratio").

This sort of thing just drives me a little crazy, didn't mean to call you out in particular and hope you understand.

Vincent

 

[Vincent_P]

Only two basic stocks. 5250 and 51.

Which of those was the "cheap stock"?

Vincent

 

[Jordan Krug]

I understand, I just think people get the wrong idea when things like "cheap film stock" and "cheap cameras" are thrown around. It leads to a lot of misinformation being repeated ad-infinitum on the internet and beyond. Somebody reads your post, then they post elsewhere that "cheap filmstock and cameras" were used, then "cheap filmstock and cameras" gets reposted again and again elsewhere and beyond over and over again and it ends up becoming the de-facto story regarding the history of these films on the internet (i.e., "1.66:1 was the European flat widescreen aspect ratio").

This sort of thing just drives me a little crazy, didn't mean to call you out in particular and hope you understand.

Vincent

Totally understand, as a guy who appreciates concrete facts I certainly don't want to spread any misinformation...as you say with Leone especially there's enough of that to go around I fixed my earlier post (hopefully).

 

[Robert Harris]

Which of those was the "cheap stock"?

Vincent

Probably the same price.

 

[Jordan Krug]

Mr. Harris, wondering if you can tell us, does the new Kino disc feature the alternate opening seen here in clips below (Joe steals the poncho from a man by the river)? I know the Kino disc features outtakes/dailies but the ones in this video below were mostly not used on the previous Italian blu release. It appears that all the raw footage survives. I'm assuming the Kino disc is simply porting over the outtakes from the Italian release but I'm hoping that they have included more like the ones in this video below?

 

[Jordan Krug]

Blu-ray.com review is up with stills. Wow that's a lot of green and way too much contrast for an ocn scan. What's the point of scanning extra detail in 4k if you're going to crush all the blacks?

I guess the outtakes/dailies aren't ported over from the Italian/Japan disc since they had 14 min and the Kino disc has 3 min of outtakes.

 

[Joseph Goodman]

Has anyone from L'Immagine Ritrovata ever gone on record as to why so many of the films they work on end up looking like this? They've been very consistent; films where they performed the grade end up with a sickly yellow-green cast, and films where they performed the scanning, but were graded elsewhere, look fine.

 

[J. Casey]

Never thought I would say this, but I'm glad to have kept my original MGM/UA BD box set of THE MAN WITH NO NAME TRILOGY. The prints used are dirty, but at least the color is good (or at least the way I've been used to seeing them).

 

[Jordan Krug]

Never thought I would say this, but I'm glad to have kept my original MGM/UA BD box set of THE MAN WITH NO NAME TRILOGY. The prints used are dirty, but at least the color is good (or at least the way I've been used to seeing them).

You could always go for the German double feature blu (FOD and FAFDM), FOD is the beautiful 2007 restoration from ocn, the disc is region free (the features, extras are not) both have english audio and it's the only way to to see FAFDM uncut. The MGM trilogy boxset is cut (FAFDM) and cropped (FOD).

 

[JoshZ]

Has anyone from L'Immagine Ritrovata ever gone on record as to why so many of the films they work on end up looking like this? They've been very consistent; films where they performed the grade end up with a sickly yellow-green cast, and films where they performed the scanning, but were graded elsewhere, look fine.

When the initial 4k remaster for Good Bad Ugly was released, I recall reading claims that the controversial yellow color grade was allegedly based on an answer print. This was met with a lot of skepticism.

 

[Jordan Krug]

When the initial 4k remaster for Good Bad Ugly was released, I recall reading claims that the controversial yellow color grade was allegedly based on an answer print. This was met with a lot of skepticism.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't an "answer print" a sort of test print to see if the lab got the colors right? Then after the "answer print" is approved, they then make the release prints? So in theory it could have been a rejected "answer print"?

 

[Robert Harris]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't an "answer print" a sort of test print to see if the lab got the colors right? Then after the "answer print" is approved, they then make the release prints? So in theory it could have been a rejected "answer print"?

In many cases, a conversion or test print is produced, based on stock updates, or lab changes.

The first print always seems to come out yellow.

 

[Jordan Krug]

In many cases, a conversion or test print is produced, based on stock updates, or lab changes.

The first print always seems to come out yellow.

Thank you for the info, much appreciated.

 

[Spencer Draper]

I posted this originally in the Blu-ray.com thread but figured I would cross post here:

Kino are simply licensing the films and taking the Italian new transfers which are horridly wrong and issuing them here in the States. They did an attempt to adjust GBU which was not successful alongside their presentation of a shorter edit. So you are seeing the L'Immagine Ritrovata version of Fistful and it is not Kino who has done the transfer.

All in all this new release has a new commentary and the new interview. Otherwise it is absolutely a throwaway. The previous MGM release is decent and was sourced from their non-negative elements. The Italian 2007 restoration is perfectly fine in every way and is easily obtainable on the region free double feature German Blu-Ray. That set is a must for any Leone fan for having the current best versions of Fistful and FAFDM on any format. The MGM BD is essential for their extras (The German set has them in PAL) and the slightly different look and framing of the US version. I'm still more used to that look as I grew up with all the US editions from that source.
I have also seen the 35mm version of the 2007 Ripley Italian restoration and it is stunning. That was the first time I really took notice of the snowing effect in Joe and Ramon's first meeting-the image was so sharp and vibrant.

And the German FAFDM is not only the first fully uncut release but it removes the layers of DNR in the MGM master to provide a more pleasing level of detail in exchange for some specks and dirt every once in a while. It's still stuck with EE but that was baked in to this particular master. This disc is the best release so far and I'm terrified of what the new version will come out like. The Italian releases previously available on video have a slightly different look-warmer slightly and a tad softer. The print I saw was MGM's only surviving vault print element and had one shot entirely pink-but it did have some of the extended pieces and the 1967 UA trims done to it. I think it was also used for the Laserdisc transfer as that seems identical to the running order of the MGM print. Outside of the one pink shot the rest looked stunning and was perhaps mostly dye transfer. And wouldn't you know it-it looked NOTHING like these modern versions. MGM stated at the time they scanned the negative for the reissue DVD and Blu-ray.

It has also been evidenced that the other films have had this coloring applied to them, as the Italian re-release disc of Giu La Testa has similar re-coloring applied. I don't understand why this is allowed to continue-especially since there was an outcry about the poorly done OUATIA Italian extended release that was later revised and redone by Warner for their USA release of the longer version.

 

[Spencer Draper]

To clarify about the German double feature set:

The Ripley version is available on both Italian and German BDs, but the the encoding is slightly better on the Italian in terms of tech specs. however the German has lossless English mono whereas the Italian does not. The German is Region free, the Italian is not and more expensive.

The 35mm print of the Ripley restoration is so stunning that at times I felt I was watching a brand new film. After growing up with all the washed out TV airings, VHS tapes and then graduating to the DVDs all based on the US elements-seeing the negative sourced restoration was like having the veils lifted off.

 

[Konstantinos]

Dear Mr. @Robert Harris, why you and your colleagues don't say anything to Ritrovata/ Eclair before they "ruin" more movies with the teal-yellow cast?
There are dozens blurays already with the exact same color palette (some of them my favourite films, that I haven't bought due to this).
Maybe they'll listen to you, that their settings are wrong. (i don't know exactly what is the problem)