A Few Words About A few words about...™ Fantasia -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[SilverWook]

I think there might have been expectations, rightly or wrongly, that the Blu Ray would be everything but the kitchen sink, due to the formats capacity. The stickers that were on the VHS and LD covers proclaiming "The final release of this animated masterpiece!" seem kind of ironic now.


Does anyone have any memories of what the late 70's reissue was like?

 

[DeeF]

The new BD is fantastic, the best this movie has ever looked and sounded. I have seen it many times in the theater, starting in the late 60s, and this is better than every other release of the film.


I wish the real extras were included, but I have retained the old DVD set.


As to Deems Taylor, like Glenn Erickson (DVD Savant) I think I might have preferred that Deems' original voice be retained wherever possible, and the new dub be a "mismatch," so that I know when it is him and when it is the dubber. But this isn't a big issue for me.


This movie is art. Even Picasso admired Disney's animated films.

 

[Steve Christou]

I've watched the blu-ray twice already. Fantasia-stic! Highly recommended.

 

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

"Some jerk" refers to Scott MacQueen, who was in charge of the initial Roadshow Version restoration. I can assure you that he is not some talentless hack who takes a pair of scissors to a film on a whim. I don't know him personally, but I have a very good friend who does and speaks quite highly of him. The explanation I was given at the time of the DVD release was that a combination track simply would not work. It was not a decision that was made lightly or on the spur-of-the-moment. I don't know if anyone here knows Mr. MacQueen and can ask him for any more clarification, but, to be honest, I don't know what anyone would want him to say. The decision was made in order that the viewing audience, many of whom would be seeing FANTASIA for the first time, wouldn't be drawn out of the film by audible and awkward edits during the narration. People on this site are great at armchair quarterbacking, but, save for a very small number of individuals, have no actual firsthand knowledge of how or why editorial decisions are made. In this case, the change in narration was explained by Disney. It was a valid, if unfortunate, decision. All of us would unquestionably want a complete version of FANTASIA with the narration intact. Save for some miracle whereby the complete narration is found, it isn't going to happen. Folks can feel free to rend their garments and shout their displeasure to the mountaintops, but, in the case of Deems Taylor's narration, it serves no constructive purpose.

As someone very familiar with Mr. MacQueen's work and mindset, I can tell you that he would not have taken the situation with anything less than total seriousness, and with the best interests of the project at heart. A modern audience does not desire to hear a track cobbled together with different voices. Could the surviving Taylor footage have been used as an alternate? Possibly. But these are decisions that usually make thier way down from the corporate stratosphere and for varying reasons. There is a huge difference between restorative efforts, in this case for a film that was a distibution failure in its intial run, based upon a desire to offer a cohesive final product to the public, as opposed to a more scholarly effort, possibly for a silent film that could easily be inclusive of "shot missing" cardsRAH[/QUOTE]


Gentlemen, Deems Taylor's voice is not entirely lost. The two or three brief segments where his voice is missing on the masters may still be heard in various prints of the film owned by repositories and private collectors, etc. These are obtainable in the usual way. Perhaps the sound quality is not as good, but let's not exaggerate the problem. Some small effort and perhaps a miniscule expense are required to pull it all together. All it takes to preserve Deems Taylor's voice and offer it as an option on the Blu-ray is the will to do it. Someone in the pecking order to advocate it. I do not accept the explanation that audiences would be drawn out of the film by awkward edits because it runs counter to my experience. As previously stated, Deems Taylor's voice is the only voice that is right for Fantasia. He is not disposable and he is not replaceable. His voice is embedded as part of the aesthetic of the film and is not a trivial or arbitrary thing. The editor should ask himself "What can I do to preserve the original voice" instead of "what's the easiest way of replacing it." There is no excuse. It is hard to believe that Scott MacQueen is responsible for this offense. I'm very disappointed to learn of this lapse in his judgment.

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

As previously stated, Deems Taylor's voice is the only voice that is right for Fantasia. He is not disposable and he is not replaceable.

History disagrees since his voice was totally disposable and replaced. It's a shoulder shrug to the majority.

 

[Scott Calvert]

I believe that, in a majority of instances, the marketing hype you hear about lost footage or other elements being "discovered" in the vaults is a bunch of hooey. My suspicion is that deals are worked out behind the scenes between various parties to obtain whatever materials are necessary. I've read there are some studios and individuals employed by studios who simply won't deal with private collectors as a matter of policy/ego/saving face/etc. It makes sense that studios would not want their past carelessness with certain assets to be broadcast to the public and that they would also not want to encourage the private "collecting" of certain assets.


It's unfortunate that politics such as these can hinder the quality or release of important films. I have a sneaking suspicion that putting together a definitive release of Fantasia is entirely possible and maybe not even really that difficult. I would encourage people who care about these things to demand more from these studios and not swallow their PR hype so readily. I would love to own Fantasia on blu-ray but I'm not buying that thing that's out there now.

 

[Scott Calvert]

Originally Posted by Russell G
History disagrees since his voice was totally disposable and replaced. It's a shoulder shrug to the majority.

What is your point? Are you saying you agree with the majority (ie people who don't care about things like this)? If so, then why are you a member of the Home Theater Forum? If not, why even make the comment?

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by Scott Calvert

What is your point? Are you saying you agree with the majority (ie people who don't care about things like this)? If so, then why are you a member of the Home Theater Forum? If not, why even make the comment?

I do agree, but your wrong in your assumption that the majority "do not care about things like this." I do care, I would prefer that Fantasia was presented on BLuray the way Walt originally wanted it, with original audio and uncensored. That was not the case, and the reasons for the compromises where adequately explained. I'm OK with those compromises and enjoy the Bluray. Many industry professionals, who also post on this board enjoy the release as well.


Or are you claiming only worthy to be members if we are outraged by every nit pick on every release that comes out? I'm telling you right now, every single DVD and Bluray in your collection has been compromised in some form to get to the digital medium. Some compromises are more apparent. It's up to the individual to decide if they like it or not.


In responding to Richards hyperbole, he's simply wrong. Disney seemed fit to replace the dialog, and probably factored in the fact that outside of collectors no one has any idea who Taylor is and wouldn't notice his dialog was replaced. Don't believe me? Tell a friend who's casual with films about this huge aural abomination and see what reaction they give and if they know who Deems Taylor is. It'll most likely be a shrug. It sucks, but there it is.

 

[Steve Christou]

Who is dis "Deems Taylor"? Please I learn.



What Russ is saying is that Deems Fantasia voice is now history, and only a few people care. While it's sort of admirable that some of you have taken a stance and declined in owning this glorious blu-ray release, the rest of us are meanwhile sitting back and enjoying the music and the visuals.

 

[Scott Calvert]

Originally Posted by Russell G
I do agree, but your wrong in your assumption that the majority "do not care about things like this." I do care, I would prefer that Fantasia was presented on BLuray the way Walt originally wanted it, with original audio and uncensored. That was not the case, and the reasons for the compromises where adequately explained. I'm OK with those compromises and enjoy the Bluray. Many industry professionals, who also post on this board enjoy the release as well.


Or are you claiming only worthy to be members if we are outraged by every nit pick on every release that comes out? I'm telling you right now, every single DVD and Bluray in your collection has been compromised in some form to get to the digital medium. Some compromises are more apparent. It's up to the individual to decide if they like it or not.


In responding to Richards hyperbole, he's simply wrong. Disney seemed fit to replace the dialog, and probably factored in the fact that outside of collectors no one has any idea who Taylor is and wouldn't notice his dialog was replaced. Don't believe me? Tell a friend who's casual with films about this huge aural abomination and see what reaction they give and if they know who Deems Taylor is. It'll most likely be a shrug. It sucks, but there it is.

Why do complaints about the wholesale replacement of an audio element such as this qualify as a nitpick? Are you the arbiter of what does or does not qualify as a nitpick? I certainly don't believe it's a nitpick, nor do I think Richards comments are hyperbole. I also fail to see how his comments are "wrong." Lastly, I really couldn't care less if the casual person would shrug about the changes. The casual person watches 4:3 images in stretch mode on their widescreen television sets and prefers the look of live HD sports broadcasts to film. If they don't care if the voice was changed, then they also wouldn't care if the voice wasn't changed. But then I suppose you will respond that this is hypoerbole and that I am wrong.


This simply boils down to the fact that it bothers you that some people object to the changes. I fail to see why it does...the movie is released and you like it. You win. Some of us don't buy the studio PR and want things done differently. Maybe these complaints will be heard and taken into consideration for a future release. Maybe not. That won't stop people from pushing for more respectful releases in the future though. Not just regarding the voice track of a prominent part of the production, but the egregious use of digital image manipulation as well. One thing is certain, if not enough people make their opinions heard, nothing will change.

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by Scott Calvert


Are you the arbiter of what does or does not qualify as a nitpick?

Yes.


And Richard is certainly wrong that "As previously stated, Deems Taylor's voice is the only voice that is right for Fantasia. He is not disposable and he is not replaceable." since I own a DVD and Bluray that proves that he can be disposed of and replaced in an acceptable way to many industry professionals, not just casual viewers.

 

[Scott Calvert]

I need to respond to this comment as well. I think you know very well that's not what I'm saying. It's obvious to anyone with any sense that it's you who has the problem with the dissenting (nitpicking) opinions. Not vice versa.


It's also quite obvious to anyone that not all compromises are created equal. Of course there are inevitable compromises to get a film image into the digital realm at 1080p. Does every classic film in my collection have entire voice tracks replaced? Does every film have every frame digitally re-painted and noise reduced to remove all hints that the image was film-sourced? This might surprise you but, no, they don't. The problems with Fantasia, and most other Disney releases on blu-ray, are the results of specific choices made by the studio based on certain market forces and not necessity.


You are quite correct that it is up to the individual to decide. Maybe if we just kept our mouths shut about it that would make you happier?

Originally Posted by Russell G
Or are you claiming only worthy to be members if we are outraged by every nit pick on every release that comes out? I'm telling you right now, every single DVD and Bluray in your collection has been compromised in some form to get to the digital medium. Some compromises are more apparent. It's up to the individual to decide if they like it or not.

 

[Mike Frezon]

What's amazing is that everyone here is basically on the same side. I shudder to think what would be transpiring here if that were not the case.


It is also amazing that I have to run from one Fantasia thread to another to put out these fires.


Remain passionate about one of Mr. Disney's major works...but also keep respectful to the other members who are posting their opinions here.


Since, for the most part you folks agree that you would like the film restored to its original state as much as possible for home video purposes...we don't need to have this extraneous discourse centering on those rendering those opinions

 

[Richard--W]

Russell G enjoys derailing threads with snipes against me personally.


Studios, films and filmmakers are fair game for criticism, but personal attacks against other board members is supposed to be forbidden.


Please make him stop.

 

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Scott Calvert
Or are you claiming only worthy to be members if we are outraged by every nit pick on every release that comes out? I'm telling you right now, every single DVD and Bluray in your collection has been compromised in some form to get to the digital medium. Some compromises are more apparent. It's up to the individual to decide if they like it or not.

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Russell G

What is your point? Are you saying you agree with the majority (ie people who don't care about things like this)? If so, then why are you a member of the Home Theater Forum? If not, why even make the comment?

I do agree, but your wrong in your assumption that the majority "do not care about things like this." I do care, I would prefer that Fantasia was presented on BLuray the way Walt originally wanted it, with original audio and uncensored. That was not the case, and the reasons for the compromises where adequately explained. I'm OK with those compromises and enjoy the Bluray. Many industry professionals, who also post on this board enjoy the release as well.


Or are you claiming only worthy to be members if we are outraged by every nit pick on every release that comes out? I'm telling you right now, every single DVD and Bluray in your collection has been compromised in some form to get to the digital medium. Some compromises are more apparent. It's up to the individual to decide if they like it or not.


In responding to Richards hyperbole, he's simply wrong. Disney seemed fit to replace the dialog, and probably factored in the fact that outside of collectors no one has any idea who Taylor is and wouldn't notice his dialog was replaced. Don't believe me? Tell a friend who's casual with films about this huge aural abomination and see what reaction they give and if they know who Deems Taylor is. It'll most likely be a shrug. It sucks, but there it is.

[/QUOTE]

Russell, I agree completely and have said similar things here and in the Metropolis review thread. And I've been accused of the same by the same. It seems some simply feel the need to be negative and insult. The thought is that if you aren't negative and complaining all the time, you don't care. The accusation seems to be that those that enjoy the new Blu-ray releases of Fantasia or Metropolis are not really fans of the film or of quality presentations. A rather silly and absurd notion, especially considering the person who wrote this review and offered his explanation - Mr. Harris!

 

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Russell G enjoys derailing threads with snipes against me personally.


Studios, films and filmmakers are fair game for criticism, but personal attacks against other board members is supposed to be forbidden.


Please make him stop.

I don't see that at all. He's simply stating the facts and offering a different opinion. Are you asking to have opinions that differ from yours censored?

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by Richard--W :

Discussions on this forum are polite, cordial and respectful. We do not hesitate to express our opinion on matters involved, knowing other members may or may not share those opinions. We will always respect opinions of other members, even if we do not share a particular opinion ourselves. We will not verbally attack other members in a personal way, but instead try to contribute to the common knowledge about, and understanding of all applicable topics discussed.

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Russell G enjoys derailing threads with snipes against me personally.


Studios, films and filmmakers are fair game for criticism, but personal attacks against other board members is supposed to be forbidden.


Please make him stop.

I have never personally attacked you Richard, I have vocally disagreed with your opinions though. The moderators around here aren't dopes, they would of messaged me if I was out of line with you.


Speaking of which, Mike Freezon has already asked all of us about these digressions. So this will be my last post on Fantasia, you all know my position.



Quote: urbo73

Russell, I agree completely and have said similar things here and in the Metropolis review thread. And I've been accused of the same by the same.

Thanks urbo73, I've seen that debacle of a thread too Urbo. That "Metropolis" release was one of the most impressive things I've seen this year.

*****

Sorry Mike, you posted while I was typing. My apologies.

 

[Richard--W]

Colin Clive's voice in the original Frankenstein is too neurotic.

Let's revoice him with a voice that makes better sense for today's audience.


James Cagney's voice in Public Enemy is sometimes too far away from the microphone.

Let's revoice him with an actor who's up close and personal.


Michael Hordren's narration of Watership Down is so English some Americans can't understand him.

Let's revoice him with Kelsey Grammar.


There is no voice track to match Laurence Olivier's reinstated scene in Spartacus.

Let's hire Anthony Hopkins to revoice him throughout the entire film.


It would take all day to edit the missing segments of Deems Taylor's voice back into Fantasia, and I would be late for dinner.

Just because he conceived the film, supervised the music and writing, and stars in it is no reason he should speak, too.

Besides, who cares? Disney fans will buy it regardless of whether or not we respect the artist.

Let's make some excuse and get paid for the job anyhow.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

Post deleted by poster.