A Few Words About A few words about...™ Dracula aka Horror of Dracula -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Randy Korstick]

I personally think the extra Japan footage hurts this classic film. After hearing of the footage for 30+ years I was extremely disappointed when I finally saw it last year and found it was no big deal. In fact the extra few seconds make the dying scene drag on too long and make this classic horror film more campy. I could just see mystery science theater viewing this extended disintegration scene with cracks like: "oh just die already" The original scene works much better. The even longer version from Anollis is even worse since there was no sound found for that footage and they reused sound so it makes the music out of synch with the disintegration scene and the music is vital to that scene.

 

[Eastmancolor]

For much of the time the Warner Blu-ray does replicate the look of the 16mm British IB Technicolor print that I once had. The one scene where it falls apart a bit is the sequence where Lucy meets the child in the forest. That's a bit too dark, a bit too blue and doesn't have a lot of detail. Probably a result of the color fade in the original negative that Mr. Harris mentions.

But other than for those handful of shots I think the new Warner Blu-ray looks fantastic and it comes closest to the look of the old dye transfer prints.

 

[lark144]

For much of the time the Warner Blu-ray does replicate the look of the 16mm British IB Technicolor print that I once had. The one scene where it falls apart a bit is the sequence where Lucy meets the child in the forest. That's a bit too dark, a bit too blue and doesn't have a lot of detail. Probably a result of the color fade in the original negative that Mr. Harris mentions.

But other than for those handful of shots I think the new Warner Blu-ray looks fantastic and it comes closest to the look of the old dye transfer prints.

Thanks so much Mr. Harwood, for your comments. Though I didn't own a 16mm print of Hammer's DRACULA, I did see what I believe was an British IB 35mm Technicolor print a couple of times in NYC in the late 80's, and my reaction to the Warner Archive Blu-ray was exactly the same as yours. I thought the color and detail was very close, except for the scene with Lucy in the forest, which was too dark and blue. But overall, I'm very pleased with this Blu-ray.

 

[3D Projectionist]

Some years ago we went to a film festival where a 16mm print was shown on a Xenon projector and it looked wonderful. When my Warner BR arrives I'll report back but it was a memorable time also fronted by a long reel of Hammer trailers.

As for the one British BR the only thing I will say is I admire all the hard work and to have the Jap footage in it is interesting. The original feature I still find the colour muted which was apparently done purposely even though the film I watched was vibrant. Anyway we are perhaps lucky to have attention paid to these films and happy to order them here.

 

[moviebuff75]

The master shot of the castle at the start of Chapter 6 is cut short. It is extremely fleeting. Is this a transfer error?

 

[Dick]

I personally think the extra Japan footage hurts this classic film. After hearing of the footage for 30+ years I was extremely disappointed when I finally saw it last year and found it was no big deal. In fact the extra few seconds make the dying scene drag on too long and make this classic horror film more campy. I could just see mystery science theater viewing this extended disintegration scene with cracks like: "oh just die already" The original scene works much better. The even longer version from Anollis is even worse since there was no sound found for that footage and they reused sound so it makes the music out of synch with the disintegration scene and the music is vital to that scene.

Well, you know what they say about opinions... Personally, I like the extra footage as it reveals a shot of Dracula clawing at his burning face, which features the make-up Lee had in a very oft-published (in FM, etc., at least once as a full-page photo) shot of his peeling skin. I always felt ripped off I could never see it in the movie, but now I can. The disintegration sequence is really quite short even with the added few seconds. It doesn't negatively affect the visual pacing, although the sound coverage could use some work.

 

[Randy Korstick]

Well, you know what they say about opinions... Personally, I like the extra footage as it reveals a shot of Dracula clawing at his burning face, which features the make-up Lee had in a very oft-published (in FM, etc., at least once as a full-page photo) shot of his peeling skin. I always felt ripped off I could never see it in the movie, but now I can. The disintegration sequence is really quite short even with the added few seconds. It doesn't negatively affect the visual pacing, although the sound coverage could use some work.

I agree that it is important footage and every fan of the film should see it at least once but I do think it makes the sequence too long and too cheasy especially after just watching the WAC blu ray without it. I can see why it was not included anywhere except for Japan. WAC should have included it as an extra. But at least its available on the UK and Annolis versions. I am happy to have both versions but prefer the film without the footage.

 

[Bryan^H]

I don't care about the Japanese footage. The color is rich, and vibrant. Too dark though.
It kills me that the POS Dracula 72 looks better than this. Absolutely kills me!!

 

[FoxyMulder]

I have the UK version, bought years ago, it looks good to my eyes, I doubt Warner will have improved upon it.

I prefer the film with the clawing at face sequence, censorship be damned.

 

[haineshisway]

I have the UK version, bought years ago, it looks good to my eyes, I doubt Warner will have improved upon it.

I prefer the film with the clawing at face sequence, censorship be damned.

But the Warner DID improve on it in the most important area - the color. So why would you doubt they'd improved upon it?

 

[FoxyMulder]

But the Warner DID improve on it in the most important area - the color. So why would you doubt they'd improved upon it?

The colour of the UK release looked nice to me, was it accurate, well i guess not after reading page one again, but why in a restoration did the BFI and Hammer not reference those dye technicolour prints.

Seems a missed opportunity if they were doing a restoration.

 

[haineshisway]

A big missed opportunity, but they kind of bragged about doing revisionist color.

 

[Spencer Draper]

I've hated the UK disc ever since it came out so much so that every year I rewatch the contrasty, overcropped very old DVD. While the entire UK master wasn't blued to death the parts that were drove me absolutely bonkers and for that and other reasons it became one of my most hated releases because color is so important to this film.
I agree with the sentiment that the legendary Japanese footage is a treasure but ultimately doesn't work with the final scoring edits and throws out the swift pacing of the finale a bit. Of course it is the US theatrical cut we normally speak of that is seen here on video as the UK version was trimmed in all of the more objectionable parts much further.
I hate that they removed the Horror title as the box and disc have the US title and he edit is the US release version. Plus I feel it's a much better title anyway.

Now to talk about the new disc...I've posted over on BD.com and read the classichorrorforum thread and it's not an easy one to discuss. Overall it seems a drastic improvement in color and overall transfer but the darkness obscures too much for a modern HD presentation and it seems related primarily to the edges of the camera setups thus producing a sort of unintentional iris effect at times. I think WAC went back to the 2007 master source and tried to adjust whatever was there to better match the IB prints they referenced. This is what should be making the disc overall look better than the more processed UK BD made a few years later but in working with an older 2007 master with presumably some of this stuff baked into it causes it to be very limiting. So while the color is addressed it causes the black levels to go off and then while the tone of the color is dramatically better some things occasionally appear too bright, such as Harker's journal which at times looks like a red beacon. When viewed on a calibrated display this new disc is too dark for a HD release and even with adding back a few points of contrast/brightness on your display it cannot fully address the issue. But again it's not in every shot and seems to be mainly on the frame sides and in objects/costumes.

Of course all of this would be alleviated if a new scan was done and I cannot for the life of me understand why so many great classic titles such as this do not receive the treatment that some junk does today with 4K. I know WAC did this as a good stopgap to at least get the film out there and should be applauded for doing so. However it is not perfect and those not used to seeing film scans without proper regrading for consumer displays and HD standards will note how dark the image can be obscuring details particularly around the edges of the frame. Ironically the included original Universal trailer while faded does not have the black level issue of the feature.

The audio is wonderful. I noticed a surprising but healthy amount of inherent noise but it was never obtrusive and there was absolutely no high end distortion on and dialogue of music.

The castle fade issue is immediately noticeable on first viewing and I have no idea what went wrong. This along with the black levels being a tad too much are the real drawbacks of this release-however the color is so awful on the UK disc that this is a must own.

The problem overall is that we're so used to old video versions with different framing and very little black level and tons of contrast. I've had to watch the old super croppy and very contrasty DVD with boosted colors yearly and going to this was a dream save for the two issues of black level and the castle fade. The included original Universal trailer is fantastic since we only had the redone WB one before.

I still miss the HoD title card.

So in short is this perfect? No. But it's arguably the best version to arrive on video so far and the color is drastically improved but not perfect. It just has the fade issue (Is it just me or do all the fades seem more pronounced on this disc?) and the blacks are perhaps a tad too obscuring of finer details. Until proper 4K treatment with modern tools is applied this is the best we can hope for.

It is kind of odd that we get almost simultaneous reissues of HOD and Prince of Darkness both of which feature problematic transfers that are seemingly more of a straight from the source approach. Here it's a redo of the 2007 master to match archival sources and the Shout release has the straight US vaulted IP print scan with too much in the black levels and an alternative color presentation.

I also didn't mention the very infrequent but occasional soft looking shots because I felt they were inherent to the source.

The more I think about it the more convoluted this becomes. Ultimately this isn't an easy film to discuss.

 

[Stephen PI]

Of course it is the US theatrical cut we normally speak of that is seen here on video as the UK version was trimmed in all of the more objectionable parts much further.

The difference between the US and UK versions, besides the title is during the Lucy staking. The close-up of the stake with blood was cut and the distressing reactions from Lucy.

One of the basic rules in telecine is that wherever possible you avoid 'clipping' of highlights and 'crushing' of blacks. Any exceeding degree in level of either is burned in to the transfer and cannot be rectified by your tv settings.
I've had experience in telecine supervision and on the grader's work area is a vectorscope an essential tool where you can easily see what 'highlights' and 'lowlights' are going into the area of no return. Obvious items such as bright headlights and streetlights are often unavoidable but anything that is very light or dark, done with any care, should not be a problem. (I am referring to procedures which may not be a problem today with modern technology - HDR??)

When I supervised "THE TWILIGHT ZONE", the 35mm original negatives and/or occasional fine-grain masters had amazing detail from top to bottom and I made every effort to ensure that as much of that detail got to the video transfer.
As I previously mentioned I was dissatisfied with Warner's transfer. It is too dark and that the black crush, that I believe is global, only becomes apparent when the image's density goes down to a certain level. I'm not sure what causes the problem that appears on the frame sides, possibly a reaction of the compression versus the degree of black crush applied

 

[Will Krupp]

So in short is this perfect? No. But it's arguably the best version to arrive on video so far and the color is drastically improved but not perfect. It just has the fade issue (Is it just me or do all the fades seem more pronounced on this disc?) and the blacks are perhaps a tad too obscuring of finer details. Until proper 4K treatment with modern tools is applied this is the best we can hope for.

Thank you for the thorough and reasoned analysis. I also read your posts on the BR forum and really enjoyed them.

I think, at this point, which release is better simply comes down to what is more important to the viewer, more correct color or better black levels, since neither of the two versions we're talking about is anywhere near perfect nor definitive. I have always fancied myself a "color" guy, but this this release (surprisingly) has changed that. After looking at both discs over and over again, I've come to the realization that I can live with the flawed color scheme on the British disc (as imperfect as that is) but I just absolutely cannot get past the heavy black levels and lack of detail on the Warner. To my mind, any advances Warner has made with the color are completely negated by the overall murkiness of their disc. It's as incorrect in its way as the BFI is in theirs. Other members have gone on record as saying that the more correct color is the big winner and they can live with the depressed blacks. I can respect that, too, as both camps are making some sort of compromise anyway.

I don't think there's much point in arguing which is "better" since it will all come down what each individual can "live with."

I've stayed pretty much out of the fray after my initial observations when the disc came out, but one thing that's driving me crazy (mostly on the other board) is how determined people are to "take a side" and insist that their preferred version is the absolute correct version and everyone must agree with them. I love Warner as much as the next guy but they aren't infallible.

Until we have a release with both the right color and proper black levels, watch whichever one you prefer.

 

[Bryan^H]

Of course all of this would be alleviated if a new scan was done and I cannot for the life of me understand why so many great classic titles such as this do not receive the treatment that some junk does today with 4K.

,

THIS!! 110%

If "The Curse of Frankenstein" (my favorite Hammer of them all) is handled so mediocre, I will be upset. Really upset.

 

[Stephen PI]

,

THIS!! 110%

If "The Curse of Frankenstein" (my favorite Hammer of them all) is handled so mediocre, I will be upset. Really upset.

I believe the original film materials are in a worse state than HOD, so I'm not quite sure how Warner are going to handle any future US release.

 

[Spencer Draper]

I always try to look at all sides and understand both what happens on disc and the respective title's transfer history and such. Unfortunately most do not go into such detail and become quick to judge without understanding the nature of the business or what labels have to work with.

I believe the original film materials are in a worse state than HOD, so I'm not quite sure how Warner are going to handle any future US release.

The UK CoF Bluray many dislike is the Warner scan of their best elements. So it remains to be seen what modern work could do with whatever is uncovered. It was long thought that the holdup on both titles was to find better elements and that the negatives and vault materials were either gone or in bad shape. IIRC the Warner COF scan was from a interpositive or something which was the best they had. It was done some time ago but is after the DVD scan which was essentially a noise reduced edge enhanced reissue of the final letterboxed Laserdisc master which was a uncommon disc to find and it's only since a friend got one and told me it was the DVD master source that I've been able to nail down the time line of COF on video.

Now I guess for completion's sake I really need to go and find the old 1.33 HoD Laserdisc. The Japanese exclusive 1.33 releases of the sequels were supposed to have different color and I haven't found The Mummy yet.


Come to think of it isn't it funny that THE MUMMY suffers from none of these problems? The DVD was solid and was without framing issues and the HD presentations are absolutely stunning. THAT should be the benchmark for these and an example of how Jack Asher shot early Hammers can look-and I think it could be even better in 4K. Similarly the HD presentations of BASKERVILLES are light years ahead of the old LD/DVD master but still based around older work and could benefit from a new scan.

 

[Stephen PI]

I always try to look at all sides and understand both what happens on disc and the respective title's transfer history and such. Unfortunately most do not go into such detail and become quick to judge without understanding the nature of the business or what labels have to work with.



The UK CoF Bluray many dislike is the Warner scan of their best elements. So it remains to be seen what modern work could do with whatever is uncovered. It was long thought that the holdup on both titles was to find better elements and that the negatives and vault materials were either gone or in bad shape. IIRC the Warner COF scan was from a interpositive or something which was the best they had. It was done some time ago but is after the DVD scan which was essentially a noise reduced edge enhanced reissue of the final letterboxed Laserdisc master which was a uncommon disc to find and it's only since a friend got one and told me it was the DVD master source that I've been able to nail down the time line of COF on video.

Now I guess for completion's sake I really need to go and find the old 1.33 HoD Laserdisc. The Japanese exclusive 1.33 releases of the sequels were supposed to have different color and I haven't found The Mummy yet.


Come to think of it isn't it funny that THE MUMMY suffers from none of these problems? The DVD was solid and was without framing issues and the HD presentations are absolutely stunning. THAT should be the benchmark for these and an example of how Jack Asher shot early Hammers can look-and I think it could be even better in 4K. Similarly the HD presentations of BASKERVILLES are light years ahead of the old LD/DVD master but still based around older work and could benefit from a new scan.

Hi Spencer......I think the situation with COF is that the Eastman original is faded badly and Warner created a new duplicate negative several years ago from the black and white separation masters. Consequently, the UK blu ray was made either from the dupe neg or an element made from it. The early reel have several overlapping dissolves cut into the original negative, so you can imagine how they look!
I have a hope that with today's technology, Warner might be able to go back to the aging negative and pull color out of it.
I agree with you a hundred percent that those later Hammer films don't suffer the same problems as COF and HOD. Just a guess but it could be film stocks, different owners have various storage conditions. MGM owns BASKERVILLES, BRIDES with Universal etc., etc.
I would like to see Paramount redo "MAN WHO COULD CHEAT DEATH", it looks nothing like the I.B. prints I've seen. Also I would like to have Sony bring "REVENGE OF FRANKENSTEIN" up to the quality level of their other Hammer titles.
I have those Japanese laserdiscs you mention. When I get a chance I'll dig them out and take a look and try to come up with a fair assessment and let you know..

 

[Stephen PI]

Spencer.....I don't have the Japanese "MUMMY" laserdisc