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A Few Words About A few words about...™ 2001: a space odyssey -- in 4k UHD Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

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Jean-Pierre Gutzeit
- Various reminders and ratings are based on normal knowledge of Color Correction, which could be purchased in any commercial laboratory. "2001" is a largely normal exposed 65mm OCN, mostly without stylized color lighting effects, filters or stylizations. The director may have been more interested in a kind of "Bauhaus look" of the film, in a neutral color balance. Exactly the same as the 70mm premiere prints, which started between 1968 and 1970. The Blu-ray Disc from 2018 shows a certain approachjin several scenes, but even the age-old laserdics in other scenes. So far, the only color acceptable scene in the edition of 2018, which I noticed so far, is the reception scene of Heywood Floyd on the (rotating) Space Station 5. Perhaps there is another scenes, but mostly the Blu-ray Disc from 2007 has a clear meaning advantages. It is only unfortunate that this version of 2007 has this lateral (greenish) illumination error towards the edges of the image, apparently in the interpositive. If this bug were correctable, this older version would be more authentic overall.

If there is more time, we can go through the scenes one by one. But I ask those interested in the subject, the comparison with the HD DVD / Blu ray of 2007 and possibly also the old laser disc to perform. Of course, it would also be nice if Warner could offer some scans or still-reproductions of the today's "original negative", in order to make possibilities and restrictions in the processing transparent.
(Transparency was also demanded by Robert Harris at the beginning, I believe.)
 
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Jean-Pierre Gutzeit
Here could be a better translation - I apologize for my shortcomings.


In the details, however, we could try to approach the differences of all previous versions:


- The edition of 2018 brings us the best resolution and sharpness on a home cinema medium so far (only interpositive or film prints of the original negative are at an advantage)
- This edition shows a high level of image clarity, which was not possible even in 1968 (control monitors in the cockpits of the spaceships, which worked with 16mm rear projection, which sometimes had scuffs). That never looked so good before are the now improved front projection scenes with the Australopithecus apes in front of the 3M screen. (Director Kubrick was evidently not completely satisfied himself and asked for revolutions, but MGM urges an early theatrical release).
- The frame steadiness is outstanding, as it has not seen since the 70mm premiere. Maybe even the best frame steadiness ever
- The English sound I heard is better than ever (not just because of the use of gramophone music in 1967 wit a lackj of dynamic)
- Colors, Contrasts, Color Balance and Color Correction in 2018 have largely failed, very sad. In part, one can assume that this is material-related, but various variations in the color correction within a sequence show very clearly that the colorist is clearly underqualified. The scenes have already been described - a comparison with the previous Blu-ray Disc from 2007 shows quite clearly and unequivocally what was done wrong in 2018.
 

haineshisway

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So you're basing your entire color thesis on the 2007 Blu-ray? That is not a good way to go about this. And you keep talking about the original 1968 70mm prints, which, if that is your photograph, you are not old enough to have seen.
 
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Jean-Pierre Gutzeit
It would be regrettable. to get lost because of impropriety. I appeal to compare several versions still available before we continue to discuss. Previously, a cognitive-oriented discussion is "biased" by what I believe to be consumer-oriented emotions, according to which nobody wants to be in doubt about their spontaneous enjoyment of purchased equipment or UHDs. Especially since you could otherwise be labeled as a "simple-minded buyer". So everypne defends the purchased product - against rational objections. Me too...

It is often pointed out that the typical Eastman Color character of a correct and neutrally exposed negative causes regular, and inevitably a different, above all neutral color correction. Every young colorist, even with the date of birth 2002, but also long retired colorists of the sixties, agree. For the first time in 1975 I saw the 70mm print in excellent condition, my teachers five years earlier for the late premiere in Berlin in 1970. With the exception of the Imax versions I always liked to collect all versions in the formats 35mm and 70mm. But there are other clues besides the (with other mistakes) Blu-ray Disc from 2007.

Another advice for people interested in restoration: Take a look at the scene photos of the Kubrick paperback of "Taschen-Verlag", if you have it ready. And there, too, there are color-neutral scenes from "2001" similar to the premiere version. Taschen-Verlag may have an experienced color adviser. (Because complaints: My photo was automatically taken from the Facebook page with the log in and comes from the summer of 2016. If it irritates, I would have to delete it.)
 

Robert Harris

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Here could be a better translation - I apologize for my shortcomings.


In the details, however, we could try to approach the differences of all previous versions:


- The edition of 2018 brings us the best resolution and sharpness on a home cinema medium so far (only interpositive or film prints of the original negative are at an advantage)
- This edition shows a high level of image clarity, which was not possible even in 1968 (control monitors in the cockpits of the spaceships, which worked with 16mm rear projection, which sometimes had scuffs). That never looked so good before are the now improved front projection scenes with the Australopithecus apes in front of the 3M screen. (Director Kubrick was evidently not completely satisfied himself and asked for revolutions, but MGM urges an early theatrical release).
- The frame steadiness is outstanding, as it has not seen since the 70mm premiere. Maybe even the best frame steadiness ever
- The English sound I heard is better than ever (not just because of the use of gramophone music in 1967 wit a lackj of dynamic)
- Colors, Contrasts, Color Balance and Color Correction in 2018 have largely failed, very sad. In part, one can assume that this is material-related, but various variations in the color correction within a sequence show very clearly that the colorist is clearly underqualified. The scenes have already been described - a comparison with the previous Blu-ray Disc from 2007 shows quite clearly and unequivocally what was done wrong in 2018.

All else aside, can we please not cast aspersions toward “the colorist,” as you have no idea where the color is coming from.
 
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JWC1969

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All else aside, can we please not cast dispersions toward “the colorist,” as you have no idea where the color is coming from.

Well played Mr. Harris. I admit it took me a beat to get the use of “dispersions” (surely someone as educated as Harris knows the word is “aspersions!”) but once it finally rang my rather slow bell I had a good laugh. Well done!
 
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The evaluation of the Color Timing / Grading is not solely due to the (here still to be discussed) material situation (OCN, Interpositive, Separations etc.). Our criticism also refers to the routine task of the scene compensation- Specifically, it is striking that the hotel scene at the end of the film too thundery (that is, "too dark") is tuned. You can correct this at the home cinema system but. It would have been better if the colorist had done it. In this context, there are still individual takes in the cut apart: for example, this setting is suddenly "too dark": 2: 14.03 - regardless of the material situation! This, too, is the first time to see it, and such nastiness of Grading occur in this film constantly.
Totally wrong and really outlandish is the color of the morning coat of the astronaut Bowman: for 50 years it was blue, now it is black. 2: 16:22.
I am pleased to see that slowly a more precise view of this film prevails. Finally, on the following Internet platform, a colorist has voiced first and legitimate criticisms of color matching - it is very worth reading and could trigger some serious discussion: Post 382 at https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-blu -ray software / 2953536-2001-space-odyssey-4k uhd-13.html

And the final scene with a monochrome brown astral embryo has never been seen before: it was always light blue and never different. Also, not the corridor on 1: 12.15.
 

Tino

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The evaluation of the Color Timing / Grading is not solely due to the (here still to be discussed) material situation (OCN, Interpositive, Separations etc.). Our criticism also refers to the routine task of the scene compensation- Specifically, it is striking that the hotel scene at the end of the film too thundery (that is, "too dark") is tuned. You can correct this at the home cinema system but. It would have been better if the colorist had done it. In this context, there are still individual takes in the cut apart: for example, this setting is suddenly "too dark": 2: 14.03 - regardless of the material situation! This, too, is the first time to see it, and such nastiness of Grading occur in this film constantly.
Totally wrong and really outlandish is the color of the morning coat of the astronaut Bowman: for 50 years it was blue, now it is black. 2: 16:22.
I am pleased to see that slowly a more precise view of this film prevails. Finally, on the following Internet platform, a colorist has voiced first and legitimate criticisms of color matching - it is very worth reading and could trigger some serious discussion: Post 382 at https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-blu -ray software / 2953536-2001-space-odyssey-4k uhd-13.html

And the final scene with a monochrome brown astral embryo has never been seen before: it was always light blue and never different. Also, not the corridor on 1: 12.15.
Jean Pierre

You do realize everything you’re saying is OPINION not fact right? Just want to make sure that’s clear to you.
 

dpippel

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The evaluation of the Color Timing / Grading is not solely due to the (here still to be discussed) material situation (OCN, Interpositive, Separations etc.). Our criticism also refers to the routine task of the scene compensation- Specifically, it is striking that the hotel scene at the end of the film too thundery (that is, "too dark") is tuned. You can correct this at the home cinema system but. It would have been better if the colorist had done it. In this context, there are still individual takes in the cut apart: for example, this setting is suddenly "too dark": 2: 14.03 - regardless of the material situation! This, too, is the first time to see it, and such nastiness of Grading occur in this film constantly.
Totally wrong and really outlandish is the color of the morning coat of the astronaut Bowman: for 50 years it was blue, now it is black. 2: 16:22.
I am pleased to see that slowly a more precise view of this film prevails. Finally, on the following Internet platform, a colorist has voiced first and legitimate criticisms of color matching - it is very worth reading and could trigger some serious discussion: Post 382 at https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-blu -ray software / 2953536-2001-space-odyssey-4k uhd-13.html

And the final scene with a monochrome brown astral embryo has never been seen before: it was always light blue and never different. Also, not the corridor on 1: 12.15.

Again, WHAT are you using as your reference for comparison? You mentioned some photos printed in a paperback book in a previous post. Really?
 

Robert Harris

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Well played Mr. Harris. I admit it took me a beat to get the use of “dispersions” (surely someone as educated as Harris knows the word is “aspersions!”) but once it finally rang my rather slow bell I had a good laugh. Well done!

Auto-correct stikes agin.
 

Wayne_j

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Were any of the prints Technicolor dye sublimation prints? If so they wouldn't have faded.
 

JWC1969

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Auto-correct stikes agin.

But "dispersions" works in a tongue-in-cheek way! One definition of dispersion is "the separation of light into colors by refraction or diffraction with formation of a spectrum." And since the conversation had shifted towards colors...

Anyway, wasn't trying to be snarky in my original comment. Truly thought you were playing on words.

Best!
 

PMF

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Excerpts from:
"A few words about...2001: a space odyssey -- in 4k UHD Blu-ray"
[...]The film was well-loved, and heavily overprinted during the decades. Back c. 1998-9, one of the top large format gurus in the industry, the indomitable Vince Roth, did what he could to save what was left of the original negative.
[...]But the original negative began it's descent as early as March of 1968[...]

The opening of this thread began with a review by Robert A. Harris; film archivist, historian and large-format restoration expert.

When it comes to such films as "2001: A Space Odyssey" even Mr. Harris breaks his own precedent, as "A Few Words" will simply not suffice.

The technical discussion that is now taking place is beyond any that I can rightfully address, but I felt compelled to go back to the beginning - as I had correctly recalled, found and excerpted what I feel reinforces the current debate.

A re-read of the RAH review may be useful for some, as this lays out the history and lineage of the "2001" OCN and all of the multiple prints that have followed.

Good luck to everyone.
 
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Robert Harris

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But "dispersions" works in a tongue-in-cheek way! One definition of dispersion is "the separation of light into colors by refraction or diffraction with formation of a spectrum." And since the conversation had shifted towards colors...

Anyway, wasn't trying to be snarky in my original comment. Truly thought you were playing on words.

Best!

wish I was, but I wasn't. Brain is doing too many things at present.
 

STAN aso

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Here could be a better translation - I apologize for my shortcomings.
...

No need for apologies. Your professional experience, observations, and opinions, are clear & understandable. Rather, thank you for your posts.

For comparisons, you may be interested in DVDBeaver's previous 2001 web-page (now overwritten and occupied by the newest 2018 UHD v 2011 region free Blu-ray comparison), saved for posterity by the Internet Archive - Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20100706182436/http://www.dvdbeaver.com:80/film/DVDCompare6/2001.htm

As fate would have it, here are captures of the 2001: A Space Odyssey Criterion Collection laserdisc (transfer by editor Martin Hunter with dailies sent to Kubrick, in England, who faxed back comments, requiring 6 runs with changes before his approval) for the scene of interest:

2001-ASO-CC-LD-colorbars.png

2001-ASO-CC-LD-Floyd-Arrival.png

My "proof-of-concept" normalization of this was a few page back, to the "shock and awe" of all. :D

(My next post was to back-track UHD of it's reduction in contrast and luminance ... apparently hiding lens fall-off, which was reported to have been reduced/eliminated. But I wanted to this post to precede it. Be sure to see this caps-a-holic web-page for it's UHD - Blu - Blu comparisons.)
 

David Norman

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Proof of concept you can photoshop an internet captured picture to look like a different picture isn't much a concept to prove though.

I did the same to David Bowie's Fame once. Made it much more natural sounding -- just like having Bowie in the room with me performing live without all that silly electronic manipulation.
 

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