A Few Thoughts About....Blu-ray/DVD FLIPPER DISCS (1 Viewer)

[Ronald Epstein]

I understand that. Obviously, for some, these flipper discs
do benefit BD owners. That's a given.

But we should also be happy that the studios are trying to
lure more people off the fence to upgrade to Blu-ray. All of
us want the new HD format to become the new standard.

 

[Jim_K]

Having a DVD copy of a catalog title is useless to me unless it's a Disney/children's movie. Digital copies are completely useless.

Now if these prove to play flawlessly and I don't have to pay extra then I guess I don't care.

However Universal's past track record of gluing disc together (DVD-18's and Combo's) doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[TravisR]

Originally Posted by Jim_K /img/forum/go_quote.gif
However Universal's past track record of gluing disc together (DVD-18's and Combo's) doesn't inspire confidence.

That's where I worry (for lack of a better word) too. I'm willing to give Universal the benefit of the doubt and assume that these discs won't be plagued by the same problems but if I had my choice, I'd rather they went the Disney route of having a separate Blu-ray and DVD. The flipper format won't stop me from buying a disc but hearing about a bunch of problems with them probably will (and, so far, there's none) so hopefully this will work out for everyone.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I understand that. Obviously, for some, these flipper discs
do benefit BD owners. That's a given.
But we should also be happy that the studios are trying to
lure more people off the fence to upgrade to Blu-ray. All of
us want the new HD format to become the new standard.

Again, not if I have to pay extra money for a release that has two formats on it. When I buy a BRD, I buy it for the BRD and can careless for the SD DVD. Therefore, if the studio is charging me extra money for both formats, they are making more money off of me, but without me getting any personal benefit from having a SD DVD version.
Crawdaddy

 

[Ronald Epstein]

That's the big point, Crawdaddy.
Totally agreed. However, thus far, I don't see the studio
charging a premium for both versions.
Universal, who is reading this thread, is going to have
to realize in order for consumers to support this format
they should not be charging a premium for it.

 

[dpippel]

Personally, I don't think that this is going to lure many people into getting on the Blu-ray bandwagon. At all. The software isn't the real problem. Most people that I talk with about Blu-ray mention the same two things that are holding them back. The first is a perception of expensive hardware and the "complexity" of the format. The second is their belief that standard DVD is perfectly fine. They're happy with it. Flipper discs don't address either of these issues. I doubt that many consumers will be running out to drop a couple of hundred bucks on a Blu-ray player and (possibly) over a thousand dollars for a HD display simply because they have a few $20 BD flippers lying around the house. They'll just play the DVD side and be done with it.

 

[Gary Seven]

I am, unfortunately, one of those that had problems with the HD-DVD combos. I experienced problems with Star Trek first season and Superman Returns. Problems showed up immediately (when playing the HD-DVD side...player locked up) so I returned them. The replacements I got worked fine initially but over time I had the same problem I had with my initial purchase. Therefore, my concern is durability over time with repeated viewings.

 

[Jason Charlton]

As many others have stated, my biggest beef with all of this "combo" stuff is that there seems to be a shift AWAY from a Blu-Ray only release. Why?

I don't dispute the fact that there are many folks who benefit from the added value of both a Blu-Ray and DVD in the same package, so there should be an option for those folks.

However, just as there is still a DVD-only release, there should still be a Blu-Ray only release (I hear all the talk about the combos being "at no added cost" but I'll believe that when I see it).

If the studios's main impetus to put both DVD and Blu-Ray on a single, double-sided disc is to avoid folks buying a double-disc (DVD/Blu) set and divvying them up, then why not this approach:

DVD-Only release, MSRP $20
Blu-Only release, MSRP $30
DVD/Blu flipper release, MSRP $40

People can't split up the combo release, so the studios aren't losing out on any purchases. Folks that want both formats, I think would agree that such a need is a "luxury" and should carry added cost to correspond to the added value, however they would still see a price break compared to buying them separately.

 

[ATimson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Charlton
However, just as there is still a DVD-only release, there should still be a Blu-Ray only release (I hear all the talk about the combos being "at no added cost" but I'll believe that when I see it).
If the studios's main impetus to put both DVD and Blu-Ray on a single, double-sided disc is to avoid folks buying a double-disc (DVD/Blu) set and divvying them up, then why not this approach:
DVD-Only release, MSRP $20
Blu-Only release, MSRP $30
DVD/Blu flipper release, MSRP $40

I think that what the studios are looking to do is to drop the DVD-only and Blu-only releases, and instead have that one flipper for $30. Blu-only purchases don't pay more, but DVD-only purchasers do - given how badly the DVD price market has eroded, they is one way they could try to prop it up.

 

[Jason Charlton]

Originally Posted by ATimson /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs/30#post_3649462
Quote:
I think that what the studios are looking to do is to drop the DVD-only and Blu-only releases, and instead have that one flipper for $30. Blu-only purchases don't pay more, but DVD-only purchasers do - given how badly the DVD price market has eroded, they is one way they could try to prop it up.

OK, I'm no business guru, so forgive my potentially incredibly naive view. But I'm thoroughly confused.
Now, I am definitely pro-consumer, but even I recognize that businesses exist to make money. How on Earth does the above approach help? Bundling products together at no extra charge is, in my mind, counter to what most businesses do. A la carte is how you make money.
If the studio's goal is to leave DVD behind (if the margins are so crappy), and encourage 100% adoption of Blu-Ray, then combo packs, IMO, aren't the way to go, either. How does giving away the "new" technology with the old (which is how DVD holdouts view such combo packs) encourage anyone to leave DVD?
Adjusting release dates to give Blu-Ray a head start over DVD is one approach. Including additional bonus features on only the Blu-Ray would be another. Packaging the same exact thing in two flavors for free? I just don't see that convincing anyone to make the switch.
Sadly, I see DVD co-existing with Blu-Ray for a long time. If folks want the same movie in two formats, they should pay more than folks that are content with one format or the other. Not every movie in my collection is one that I would want in both formats, anyway. I prefer Blu-Ray for most movies, but will be happy to fork over some extra cash for a DVD version of a movie that may get played in the family room or minivan on occasion. I certainly don't need my entire video library available for long car trips.

 

[ATimson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Charlton
Now, I am definitely pro-consumer, but even I recognize that businesses exist to make money. How on Earth does the above approach help? Bundling products together at no extra charge is, in my mind, counter to what most businesses do. A la carte is how you make money.

They'd be bundling at no extra charge to the ~10% of consumers on Blu-ray. (I'm pulling that number out of my ass here; apologies if it's wrong. The point holds as long as it's nowhere near 50%, though. /img/vbsmilies/htf/smiley_wink.gif) But the other 90% of consumers are being charged extra to buy the product in my scenario (flippers only, at the current Blu-ray price).

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by ATimson
be bundling at no extra charge to the ~10% of consumers on Blu-ray. (I'm pulling that number out of my ass here; apologies if it's wrong. The point holds as long as it's nowhere near 50%, though. ) But the other 90% of consumers are being charged extra to buy the product in my scenario (flippers only, at the current Blu-ray price).

Andrew: I totally get your point here. But, the more I've been thinking about this idea I keep coming back to one basic premise:

They'd be bundling at no extra charge to the ~10% of consumers on Blu-ray.

If it costs x to manufacture a BD, and the company sells it for y to yield z profit, I have a hard time believing they will manufacture a different product (which HAS to cost more than x because there's more involved) and still sell it for y to make less than the original z profit.

I suspect they will have to increase the selling point to keep the profit margin the same. Unless, of course, they decide that somehow they are going to make more profit off those DVD customers who would be spending more on the item (but will the amount of profit actually be more?). Plus, we expect there will still be DVD-only releases under this plan...don't we? I know that's the expectation under the WHV model of combo-packs.

It's hard NOT to be suspicious that the BD/DVD flipper prices would be higher than a BD-alone release.

 

[Chuck Anstey]

I don't understand why anyone thinks there is any real market for DVD only people to "pre-purchase" a Blu-ray copy. The cost of Bourne movies on DVD is $10-$12 so a DVD only consumer is paying a hefty premium to pre-purchase Blu-ray. The only group that is not paying a premium is the Blu-ray consumers who were going to pay the Blu-ray price for the movie. Except they are paying a premium in a sense that if the studio was willing to suck up the cost of the DVD add-on, why not produce the movie as Blu-ray only and reduce the price by the cost of the DVD?

At best the studios are appeasing the Blu-ray market where the consumer would also like to have a DVD for portability. That is nice to have but does anyone in the Blu-ray group not purchase the movie because it didn't have a DVD version? This seems like a chance to increase prices across the board. "No, no. You are not paying a premium for these Blu-rays. They all cost $29.95 but see we sweetened the deal with a DVD copy." "Um, but Blu-rays of this type used to cost $20-$25."

Personally I don't care as long as the format holds up and I am not paying any more for the movie than similar products that are Blu-ray only. While technically they are using a different process to glue the discs together, it isn't like the previous attempts purposely did a bad job. I'm sure they all tried their best but failed in some sense anyway. The mistake may be in thinking that it is possible to glue to discs together that will last forever if we could just find the right process and glue.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

Keep in mind a few things regarding pricing 1) I am not an economist 2) I don't know what the savings are for only having on SKU for a particular title in the supply chain. There could be a lot of behind the scenes cost savings: marketing, ordering, printing, shipping, manufacturing, warehousing, etc, etc that more than offset the increase in manufacturing costs.

Just a quick followup from yesterday Kevin who will be reviewing tried out both titles in his PS3 and had no problems.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

I don't understand why anyone thinks there is any real market for DVD only people to "pre-purchase" a Blu-ray copy. The cost of Bourne movies on DVD is $10-$12 so a DVD only consumer is paying a hefty premium to pre-purchase Blu-ray. The only group that is not paying a premium is the Blu-ray consumers who were going to pay the Blu-ray price for the movie. Except they are paying a premium in a sense that if the studio was willing to suck up the cost of the DVD add-on, why not produce the movie as Blu-ray only and reduce the price by the cost of the DVD?

Disney and WB think so. Studios don't spend money without a lot of market research.

At best the studios are appeasing the Blu-ray market where the consumer would also like to have a DVD for portability. That is nice to have but does anyone in the Blu-ray group not purchase the movie because it didn't have a DVD version? This seems like a chance to increase prices across the board. "No, no. You are not paying a premium for these Blu-rays. They all cost $29.95 but see we sweetened the deal with a DVD copy." "Um, but Blu-rays of this type used to cost $20-$25."

I think studios are still playing with pricing. The economy screwed up their initial plans. Have I personally NOT bought a disc because it didn't have the DVD? No, but at the same time there are several discs where the included DVD was enough to push me over the edge and purchase it.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs/30#post_3649536
1) I am not an economist

/img/vbsmilies/htf/eek.gif What?!? I thought you were a disciple of Keynesianism.
/img/vbsmilies/htf/biggrin.gif

 

[Adam Gregorich]

I think you are confusing me with Adam Smith..../img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif

 

[Kevin EK]

Just to throw my own two cents in the ring. (Talk about mixing your metaphors...)
I put The Bourne Identity and The Bourne Supremacy into my PS3 last night and checked both sides of each disc. Everything worked fine, including all the featurettes and the PIP U-Control functionality on the Blu-ray sides, and the featurettes and commentary on the SD sides.
From what I can tell (and from talking to Adam, who has the original 3-pack to compare), the Blu-ray content is identical to last year's release, down to the bitrates. The SD content appears to be identical to the last SD release of these titles, with previews showing for the TV shows House and Friday Night Lights on the first movie, and for Shaun of the Dead on the second movie. The thing for me is, if you have a Blu-ray player, the only advantage I can see to the flippers is that you can take the disc on the road and play it on a portable DVD player or something else.
And now that I've taken the time to actually read some of the other posts in this thread, I realize I'm being redundantly redundant. But I hope some of my specifics helped here.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich /forum/thread/297010/a-few-thoughts-about-blu-ray-dvd-flipper-discs/30#post_3649575
I think you are confusing me with Adam Smith..../img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif

You probably get that a lot. /img/vbsmilies/htf/tongue.gif

 

[Sam Posten]

For me, it is simple. Do it the way Disney does it =) 2 disks in the pack is the obvious and smart thing to do.

It gives both BEAUTIFUL full color screened artwork on the side that goes up.
There is absolutely no consumer confusion on which side goes into a player.
It creates a single SKU for sales AND marketing
Mass produced DVDs cost PENNIES to produce. The added cost into a Blu Release is negligible and the consumer can easily see the value in having both in one box.
There are no compatibility, glue, rot or other technical issues to consider
It gives consumers a copy they can easily take in the car or give to greasy fingered children to use while the pristine Blu stays in good shape =)

I will never knowingly buy a flipper of any media ever again. It's really that simple.