a bit dissapointed with the stryke 15 performance on TN Data list

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by KonradN, Jun 6, 2001.

  1. KonradN

    KonradN Stunt Coordinator

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    tn just published the results for the twin svs 20-39 with 600 watts amp and it shows that the twin package is on par with the stryke at almost all levels. the stryke looses badly at 25hz, but it does have healthy output at 16hz. figures at 16hz were not provided for the twin svs package but i estimated them to be around 90 db or less. Other than those frequencies both system are about equal across the board. I know the stryke wasn't tuned optimally so my first question is how much can it improve by beitn optimally tuned.
    You might be asking why I am dissapointed because keeping up with a dual svs package should be rather impressive. well the stryke even if you build it yourself you have to drop out 1500 to get the performance that is shown on the chart. The dual svs package is already less than that or you could buy twin hsu vtf-2 and get compareable performance (just add 6 db accross the board). I know the stryke box does not take as much space away as the dual svs setup but when you are building it yourself you should be able to beat any commercially available subwoofer in every category. Not to mention stryke is planning to sell a completed single passive 15" stryke for $3000. after you add the amp and xover/eq you have already invested more than $4k and you have a setup that is merely on par with the regular twin svs package. I just hope that the proper retuning of the stryke will give it a 3-6db boost in the 16-32hz range. That alone would it make it worth the 1500(diy) or 4000(retail) dollar price tag.
     
  2. Julian Data

    Julian Data Second Unit

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    KonradN:
    I don't see how can you be disappointed with the HE15. Regardless if it was a mistune or not, it's still one driver. The results basically tells us how important displacement can be when designing a subwoofer.
    ------------------
     
  3. Mark Seaton

    Mark Seaton Supporting Actor

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    Konrad,
    This really gets into the gray areas of interpreting test data, and you need to consider the compromises made in any design. First, as useful as the 10% distortion numbers are, the tests only give results at this one point on a curve. Now Tom Nousaine will hold that 10% is pretty much an audible or not limit, but there are many other factors which can be considered in evaluating a subwoofer's performance. Furthermore, much like with speakers, we can draw many correlations, but it is very difficult to say exactly how a speaker will sound with a limited set of measurements. Even the new SVS subwoofer using the sibling to the MASS 2012 will have a very different onset of distortion as compared to their current driver. The HE15 also falls into this category. It is common that many drivers distortion will slowly rise to about 10% with greater excursion and distortion quickly skyrockets as you pass a specific travel or power level. Very likely due to the very high gap to coil overhang ratio of the HE15 motor, one prototype of the driver had been found to keep getting louder with distortion gradually rising to and past 30% THD before distortion skyrocketed. While obviously lower distortion is a good thing, it can also be argued that if 2 drivers have the same 10% distortion limit, but one could "hang on" further with the consequence being a rise in distortion, that driver could be of greater value and have better percieved sound if the application pushes to or past the 10% limits of the subwoofer. Furthermore, the distortion can be altered by the tuning of the subwoofer, as at tuning, the driver is not moving very far.
    The thing to consider is that if we re-aligned the Stryke sub for a 20Hz or greater tuning, we could get HUGE output numbers, at the expense of low end output. In fact SVS's 16 series subwoofers will give up some output above the tuning frequency to their higher tuned counterparts. What is so impressive about the Stryke HE15 is the HUGE clean output at very low frequencies, from a manageable box size. Multiple drivers will often have greater output above some frequency where their efficiency and power handling advantage overcome the volume displacement limitations. Comparing subwoofers is a bit like comparing sports cars. If all you care about is how loud a sub can get a 16Hz, then it's much like a 0-60 time or 1/4 mi. time of a car. Is that the only consideration in the quality and more importantly the enjoyment of a car? For some yes, for the majority, far from it. It is a matter of combined benefits and compromises, and finding a product or design which best matches your preferences, goals and self imposed limitations.
    Mark Seaton
    -boy can I get fiesty on less than 3 hours sleep [​IMG]
     
  4. KonradN

    KonradN Stunt Coordinator

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    Mark
    thanks for the excellent clarification. I wish Tn could produce a full chart from 16hz to 60 at 1,10 and 30 percent thd limit for both the dual svs and stryke 15" woofer.
     
  5. Mark Seaton

    Mark Seaton Supporting Actor

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    Konrad,
    Again, remember this was just a case example of one of the many differences we could find between these subwoofers. There is also thermal compression to consider, and while TN disagree's with me, the spectrum of the distortion produced should be examined. I think the generalization that less than 10% THD is inaudible makes a few too many presumptions, particularly depending on the order of the harmonics produced. There has been an interesting discussion on the DIY-Bass list where Tom Danley jumped in to offer some possible points of consideration with respect to distortion. The main point of my response is to not read any more into measurements than what is being measured. Obviously if the sub can't reproduce the levels you desire, that's not a good selection, but when the numbers are close, I hesitate to make any statements of absolutes.
    Mark Seaton
     
  6. Bob Sorel

    Bob Sorel Stunt Coordinator

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    Konrad,
    I have not owned an SVS subwoofer, but I have owned 3 Shivas and 2 Tempests (and test drove a bunch of commercial entries), so I have a pretty good idea of how subwoofers behave. I tend to drive my system at very high SPL's, and there is no worse feeling in the world than to cringe in fear every time a really low, loud passage comes up because you are expecting your subwoofer to produce that familiar loud bang, clop, whack of the driver bottoming because it has reached its excursion limits. The HE 15 is the only subwoofer I have heard to date that I have never managed to bottom (though admittedly I have not had the "pleasure" of bottoming an SVS sub), and that factor alone puts it in an entirely different class of performance as far as I am concerned. I am sure that TV's 20-39's are great values, but I'd be willing to bet that I could bottom them without too much effort, though I have a feeling that his new SS series subs will be performers on par or maybe even better than than the HE 15's, since they will be OEM'd from the same company, TC Sounds, and performance tweaked by TV personally.
     
  7. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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    I hope you're happy with your two subs, Bob. Remember, three Strykes and you're out.
    Forgive me.
     
  8. Bob Sorel

    Bob Sorel Stunt Coordinator

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    Hehe, Jack, you know, I am on Stryke three. I built 2 of the single driver enclosures, sold one to Buzz and one to another friend, and then built a third double driver enclosure, a variation of the Power 15.6 design. This one's a keeper, so you are right, I'm out [​IMG]
     
  9. TerryC

    TerryC Stunt Coordinator

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    One side consideration that I'm becoming fond of is it is better to work two drivers less than one driver more.
    Bottoming is a BIG factor for me, while I'm not really able to bottom my VC against the back plate I am able to get the Mass to reach its XSUS and it ends up making a similar sound. That includes my single mass and the dual mass I built. Both are scary loud when it happens. Bob, you've never been able to get the HE-15 to make any funny noises???? How loud are you pushing it, are you clipping your crown amp? When we reach XSUS on the dual Mass sub the K1 is at its clipping point.
     
  10. Bob Sorel

    Bob Sorel Stunt Coordinator

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    Terry, I haven't been able to bottom the dual HE 15 yet (or make any other kind of funny noises), but the most I've pushed it with my K2 is to the point where it just starts to clip. Mark Seaton has said that he managed to bottom a single HE 15 (I think that's what he said) with a K2, but so far I haven't been able to push it that far. Don't forget, the rest of my system is powered by four Crest VS-900's putting out 450 wpc into my other seven speakers, so by the time I get the K2 to the clipping point, I am genuinely scared of blowing my other seven speakers. We are talking some serious SPL's here, even by my standards [​IMG]
     
  11. Stephen Dodds

    Stephen Dodds Second Unit

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    I'm not a sub expert. But I am going to get the Stryke package rather than the SVS.
    According to the figures supplied, there is a 15dB difference (ie compression) between the SVS max and what it will do at 20Hz.
    However, rather than worrying about differences between the $863 Stryke and the $900 SVS, I'd be concerned about why you'd pay for the $2400 Velodyne, let alone the $4K Aerial etc.
    Steve
     
  12. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

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    Bob,
    Just to let you know, the HE15 that Mark was able to bottom was the prototype with the paper cone that I sent down to him. The same one that TN measured. The SPL at 25Hz was limited by noise from the driver bottoming. The production woofers have an extra 1/2" of clearance, making them impossible to bottom. I went with 2 1" diameter and 1 3/4" diameter magnet in the stack instead of the 3 3/4" from the prototype.
    John
     
  13. John E Janowitz

    John E Janowitz Second Unit

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    Konrad,
    One more thing I'd like to note is that the prototype HE15 sub was tuned to 16.6Hz. Proper tuning is 18-20Hz, but I didn't get a chance to measure it before I sent it out. I literally built the box, screwed in the woofer and PR's and boxed it up. With tuning to the proper frequency, you will gain back about another 2dB in the 20-30Hz range, and also reduce the excursion peak. That will further increase the output over that range.
    Also, If you were to tune even higher, 22Hz or so the output over that range would go up again by a few dB more. The original system was optimized for the 15-16Hz range. The great thing about going the DIY route is that if you don't care about the output below 20Hz, you can tune the sub higher, and get more output above 20Hz. The choice is yours.
    John
     
  14. KonradN

    KonradN Stunt Coordinator

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    actually if you get an amp with a fan, like the amp that ships with all svs subs, then the single stryke package would be about equal in cost with the twin svs package while offering about equal performance in half the space. that's actually good enough for me.
    just one more thing. I heard a completed stryke weighs 200 pounds. How much is the shipping right now to california for the 22" cube and all the other parts like driver and pr?
     
  15. TerryC

    TerryC Stunt Coordinator

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    Konrad,
    I live in Aliso Viejo, if you need help building it I'd be glad to lend you a helping hand. Either way I'd love to come by and do as Mass/HE-15 comparison if your up to it. I'm sure the HE-15 will better it but I'd want to see how close they are which I'm guessing is really close. I'll also have the Mass in a PR arrangement in next couple weeks. Keep my email handy if you're interested, you can find it in my profile.
    Whats the rest of your system and what amp are you getting? If you plan on getting a Behringer FeedbackPro I have all the equipment to help you out with that too.
    When are the new drivers shipping?
     
  16. KonradN

    KonradN Stunt Coordinator

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    TerryC,
    thanks for the offer and your only 15 miles away from where i live, but I am not going to start my diy project until I move to a new apartment or house that will also be around OC. the move will occur sometime by end of august.
    by the way you are the same terry that build the dual mass that is displayed on audiomobile's website, right?
    about my system, well its pretty weak now but will be upgraded after the move as well.
     
  17. TerryC

    TerryC Stunt Coordinator

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    Yes thats me, if you're interested I'm sure Rich will give you a listen. Not to often you get to hear/see a system that his is worth! Meridian, Dukane, Krestron are the bulk of it.
     
  18. Bob Sorel

    Bob Sorel Stunt Coordinator

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    quote: Just to let you know, the HE15 that Mark was able to bottom was the prototype with the paper cone that I sent down to him.[/quote]
    Thanks, John, so now I know. I've pushed my HE 15 beyond belief and it has never made even the tiniest whimper, so I wondered how and why Mark was able to manage that feat. It's hard to describe just what a wonderful, secure feeling it is to know that your sub will never bottom out on you. Bottoming is the single worst complaint (though not the only one) I have had with any and every other subwoofer I have tried and/or owned. My dual HE 15 sub is the finest I have ever heard or owned [​IMG]
     
  19. Mark Seaton

    Mark Seaton Supporting Actor

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    Hey John, my bad...
    I had recalled that Chris Hoppe had also been able to bottom his with his K2 bridged into the driver, but again, his driver was the same design as the prototype. Thinking back now, John and I had discussed this where the increased magnet height eliminated the chance of bottoming the coil on the back plate. In the current driver, the mechanical limit of the incursion is ~48mm.
    Now for a little math:
    VC length: 58mm
    Gap height: 35.5mm
    coil overhang: 11.25mm
    With this huge suspension travel, let's consider what has to happen to reach the limit of the driver. If we first subtract the coil overhang from the 48mm of clearance on the incursion, we are left with 36.75mm of clear travel past the overhang. Now obviously per DUMAX, the motor is still linear to almost 2x the overhang, or >20mm. If you look at the numbers though, in order for the coil to reach 48mm of incursion, the coil has to completely LEAVE the gap by 1.25mm! In reality, this isn't going to happen, especially given the solid suspension of the HE15. You can also see that the last 1/2" of extra clearance for the coil is what allows for this situation, and likewise explains the ability to bottom the prototype versions. Also note, that of other manufacturers who are selling their own variant(slight differences) of this driver to the car audio market (for over $1k I might add) all use the shorter magnet stack, and thus explains why they can be bottomed with sufficient abuse.
    And let me set it straight, that I NEVER bottomed the driver when playing a movie in two monsterous(ie sitting 18-30' from the sub) great rooms I demoed it in.
    To sum up, what the Stryke driver does at max excursion is in effect a safety "stall". The motor doesn't have the power to overcome the suspension. Now, just because I said this, someone out there might want to prove us wrong, and I do want to note, IF someone pulsed a large enough DC signal into the HE15, I'm sure it could be bottomed, especially given the strength of the motor. Such a signal will simply never come off any produced media, so we can all rest easy.
    Mark Seaton
     
  20. James W. Johnson

    James W. Johnson Screenwriter

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    Bob,I have a few questions for you. Are you running one or two HE15s with a K2 ? What is their alignment? Is your amp running in stereo with a 4 ohm load?....If the case is that you are running two He15s with each side of a Crown K2
    then you are only pushing 800watts to each driver.....
    of course you cannot bottom the drivers.
    I can run 500watts to each of my Tempest drivers and easily bottom them out with the right material.
    What I am getting at is that I can extract all of the Tempest drivers performance with only 1000 watts, you are not extracting all of the HE15s performance out with only 1600watts.....I'd be willing to bet that my sub is louder that yours under the circumstances even though I can bottom out my sub.
    ------------------
    James' DIY speakers
     

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