7.1 vs 6.1 (1 Viewer)

[Kevin C Brown]

On the contrary, the fact that your concentration is so focused on the front makes it more likely that you will interpret ambiguous sounds as coming from that direction when they're meant to be heard from the rear.

Dude, I don't know about *your* brain, but when *my* brain tries to interpret where a sound is coming from, it uses *all* of the information available to determine that. Audio, video, vibration, etc. Everything.
Plus the fact that you are ignoring the fact that when research is done on reversal, typically it is with test tones and sound/frequency combinations that are specifically designed to elicit that response. That is *not* what you experience in a home theater.
Even more so, with typical 5.1 DD/DTS soundtracks, where that rear center is derived from the surround L + R's, those decoders do *not* eliminate the in phase signal from the surrounds. Rotel's xS mode, Outlaw's CES modes, Cirrus Circle Surround, and any of the 6.1/7.1 matrix modes from B&K, Anthem, Onkyo, Sony, Denon, etc, specifically designed to get a 6.1/7.1 sound field from DD/DTS 5.1 sources.
Even for (THX) DD EX and DTS-ES matrix, you can only get about 40 dB separation between the rear center and surrounds. And even for DTS-ES discrete where theoretically you can upwards of 80 or 90 dB of channel separation, there is *still* the rest of the soundtrack that gives you cues from where a sound is coming from. I.e., a rear pan. Left surround, then rear center, then right surround. Kind of very unlikely that with whatever visual cues are being supplied by the display, *plus* the fact that the pan starts in the back of the room in the 1st place, that your brain is going to interpret it wrong.
I had 6.1 with a front center speaker in the back for about 15 months (~65 weeks). Roughly 2 DVDs per weekend, 2 hrs per DVD, that's over 250 hrs of viewing/listening. Never experienced it. And if I had, I think I would have remembered it, because I was aware of reversal when I set my up system that way, and because it would have appeared "strange" enough that it would have made a distinct impression.

 

[Philip Brandes]

Again, the problem does not always occur--it is more common when the sounds are ambiguous. And when they're ambiguous, you have no way of recognizing them as "strange"--so how on earth can you know they didn't occur? All you're saying is that the reason you never heard reversals is because you never heard them. I'm glad you're happy with your setup, but nothing you've said changes the fact that it would have performed even better with two rear speakers, exactly as THX, Dolby, and DTS specify.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Craig_Kg]

So if you already had a 6.1 setup you could parallel your rear surround channel to two speakers, right?

Entirely correct. I do this with my Sony STR-DB1080 (STR-DA2ES). If you use 8 ohm speakers for the rear centers, any decent receiver should cope.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Hey Philip- And if *you* did any amount of reading on the subject as well, you'd also know that reversal isn't limited to centerline front to back either:
http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~frank.../Chapter4.html

One would expect the perception of spatial patterns to be most adversely effected by this type of error.

So my conclusion stands: I personally wouldn't suggest that anyone let the possibility of reversal prevent them from going from 5.1 to 6.1 using a direct radiator in back. And if it does bother anyone? Then use a dipole speaker, or go to 7.1.

 

[Dave Moritz]

MMMMM

Am now thinking of considering Lexicon in the mix now? How would I go about configureing this into a HT? Is like a pre/pro or surround processor. I see that it has alot of inputs but it does not seem like you could use it as a pre amp. Is it more suited for connecting to a pre/pro or is it compatible with a reciever as well? What would be the best way to incorporate it into a system?

My currenty possibilities to replace my Yamaha RX-V995

Pioneer Elite 49TXi
Denon AVR-5803
Sunfire Theater Grand 3 or Ultimate Reciever
B&K Reference 50 or AVR 507
Rotel RSP-1066"

I may end up needing a 5.1 input for a Sony 777ES SACD player that will replace my Denon DCD-1290? The Denon AVR-5803 has dual 8.1 inputs and the Rotel RSP has one 7.1 input, the Sunfire GT3 has one 7.1 input, the Pioneer Elite has one 7.1 input and the B&K Ref50 has a 6.1 input and may not work out but it does have ballanced inputs and outputs. The pre/pro may be the best way to go. I remember when I had my MX-130 it was the bomb and there was nothing like it. So well see what the cost is and see what I want to do from there?

MC-1 Cost $ ???

These are some of the features I am looking for in my HT system.

Multi Channel Playback - Audio
DTS-ES, Prologic 2?, maybe even Logic 7?
referance quality
HD compatible video stage
multi zone capability
video upconverting a plus
assignable digital inputs
Dolby Digital 5.1 minimum just so DD tracks can be played

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Dave- You migth also want to take a look at the Outlaw 950. Good bang for the buck, and I can personally attest that they have finally completely solved the hiss issue.
I also looked at the Lexicon DC-2 and MC-1. They are both full featured pre/pros. With logic 7 too. However, neither of them can do 5.1 analog passthrough for SACD/DVD-A. Should be able get either of them used for maybe $1800 to $2200.
I got the rev 2 of the 950 maybe 3 months ago, and I just received the latest one with the final "hiss fix" a week ago. If I didn't already have the 950, I'd be very heavily looking at the B&K Ref 50. And if Outlaw hadn't fixed the hiss in the 950, I'd be getting the Ref 50. A very nice pre/pro. If you look around, I've seen them for as low as $2300. The B&K has THX Ultra2, which I put in the same ballpark as Logic 7 for processing. (Both give you non-mono rears. The 950 and Rotel 1066, as well as most receivers I know of, give you mono rears.)

 

[Marty Neudel]

>MC-1 Cost $ ???<

David,

you might want to wait until a month or so. Lexicon will soon (hopefully at CES) be introducing the MC-8 which is a smaller version of the MC-12, retaining most of the MC-12 features. Lexicon says the MC-8 will sell for the same price that the MC-1 sells for now.

Marty

 

[Brian Schucher]

Hopefully once the MC8 appears, the MC1 used market will drop in price a lil bit.. It can be had though for about 1800 if your patient

 

[Philip Brandes]

Exactly what I've been saying. Finally, we agree.
Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Philip- You keep trying to talk about reversal from a theoretical standpoint. I am coming at it from a practical, real world experience.

1) Let's do a guesstimation. By your own admittance, rears matrix derived from the surround channels of "std" DD/DTS soundtracks do not have the problem. So only DD EX/DTS-ES soundtracks *may* be affected. How many DVD movies out there are of that type? I checked the latest release schedule in WSR, and I got 11 out of about 340. That's less than 3%. And, that doesn't even comprehend the fact that the % of DD EX/DTS-ES movies has steadily beeen increasing. So let's use 3% even though it's high.

(*That's* why I brought up Rotel's xS, Outlaw's CES modes, etc, before.)

Now, out of *those* movies, let's say that maybe there 5% of material in each movie that *might* have the problem. So, that would be 5 min out of a 100 min movie. Which is probably very high compared to some of the statements you have made.

Now let's say that out of that %, that visual cues, and the *other* auditory elements of the soundtrack, remove 75% of the *possible* occurrences of reversal.

Now, add up those probabilities:

0.03 * 0.05 * 0.25 = 0.000375 or 0.0375%

That's a dang small amount of effect with which to decide which HT hardware to buy.

2) *If* reversal was that big a problem, by now someone somewhere would have come up with example time sequence selections from a particular DVD that highlighted the problem. But so far at least, you haven't, and I don't know of anyone who has. Chroma bug? Everyone knows to look at certain scenes on Toy Story 2. Front to back reversal? "Where's the beef" ...


My point with vertical reversals being more common than front to back is this: If vertical reversals *are* more common than front to back, then why hasn't anyone ever mentioned *that* wrt HT? Seems like we should all be going hog-wild over the new overhead "envelope" channel, rather than 5.1 to 6.1 or 7.1...

 

[Philip Brandes]

There is no new "envelope" channel to go hog wild over (see the thread in this forum--you might learn something).

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Dave Moritz]

Thanks for the Lexicon info? Will be looking for the new Lexicon at the CES show comming up . I am asuming that it completly flexable in how it is hooked up? How do you have it hooked up to your system, is it pluged into the 5,1 or 7.1 inputs ??
HAPPY NEW YEAR

 

[Philip Brandes]

Marty:



This is generally accurate (Lexicon long ago announced that a "baby brother" to the MC-12 was in the works). However, while the current MC-1 list price seems like a good guess, Lexicon has definitely not announced any pricing or availability dates for the new unit (or even confirmed the name MC-8). Nor can we say that it will retain "most" of the MC-12 features--there are a lot of features to consider. Perhaps the software and effect modes will be the same (makes sense to leverage a common code base). But we know nothing about features such as multiple subwoofer support, balanced connections, expandability, etc. We'll have to wait for the specs to know what compromises have been made to meet the lower price point.

I fully agree with you that waiting for CES is a very good idea. I just want to be careful to identify what we know for sure as oppsed to speculation, to avoid building up false expectations (it happens a lot in home theater!)

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Dave Moritz]

I will be getting catalogs galore from the Lexicon both for sure and will be asking the rep about the baby brother to the MC-12. Hope to run into fellow Home Theater Forum members there at the CES show. Maybe we should all make up an extra badge using the printer to identify HTF members, . I will also be concentrating on pre/pros to replace my Yamaha RX-V995 reciever.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Philip- I like how you ignore the points I make that you *can't* refute.

The easiest one. If you are so smart, and you've been aware of front to back reversal for over 25 years now, why can't you come up with one single example on a DVD that's commonly available that we can all test to gain some of your insightful knowledge? Huh? I could then say, that if as you say, that a lot of the sounds where the effect might occur are "ambiguous", that even if those sounds are perceived as coming from the wrong speaker, so what? OK, not as the director/soundperson intended, but if no one can even come up with a single example, then it simply cannot be that big a deal.

I say, and I will continue to say, that reversal exists, but it is *not* a large enough reason to not do 6.1 in a HT. IMO, there is too much improvement in the sound field from 5.1 to 6.1.

BTW, I could throw a few more terms into my equation too:

What the probablity is of a particular person experiencing it. I.e., I would hope from your extensive knowledge that you do know that reversal does depend on the listener's head and ear geometry, because those two factors go into how the brain perceives a sound (and localization of that sound).

And obviously, how a user's home theater is set up, and that some setups may be more susceptible, and others not, even *not* taking into account all the other factors I've noted that you simply dismiss.

The reason why I throw out "std" DD/DTS soundtracks, is that *most* people (maybe not yourself) would *not* try to use THX EX or DTS-ES decoding on soundtracks not meant for such decoding, simply because the results *usually* aren't beneficial (i.e., the collapse into the rear channel of mono info in the 2 surrounds).

And Logic 7? Maybe you are not aware of this, but Logic 7 does not even support 6.1, so that is not even part of the discussion.

EX is actually spec'd to be on by default

(Sigh.) Real world again, EX was *not* the default decoding format for, a) a Yamaha receiver I had a few years ago, b) the Sony TA-E9000ES pre/pro I had after that, or, c) the Outlaw 950 I have now, or the many other pre/pros and receiver's I've played with in showrooms. I don't know where you get that from. That's why there are (sometimes) *flags* in DVD software to tell the processor that it's an EX or ES recording. Because most hardware (and all that I am aware of) defaults to DD/DTS 5.1.

Hmmm... Why *isn't* vertical reversal relevant to HT? Most people put their center channel *on* a TV, so it is at a higher level than their mains. And theoretically, surrounds are supposed to be 30" above ear level...

 

[Philip Brandes]

Kevin, once again I marvel at your reading comprehension skills. To repeat: I don't drag in my experience because I have implemented a proper 7.1 speaker setup so reversals aren't an issue for me. Nor would my experience be relevant in any case, because (once again) reversals are by nature ambiguous, and they are a result of psychoacoustic (i.e., perceptual) confusion. They are NOT the result of completely unambiguous externalized conditions like the chroma bug. Therefore, focusing on a specific DVD example is meaningless because: (a) any given occurrence will be dependent on more than the recording itself--it will also involve the room, the playback system, and the listener's perceptual apparatus, and (b) the inherent ambiguity means you won't recognize it's happening even if it's pointed out to you, unless you directly compare the same acoustic event using single vs. dual rear centers, and/or know a priori how the soundtrack was mixed. If I were to point to a specific example on a DVD where an ambiguous sound appears to be coming from the front, how would that in any way convince you that it should be coming from the back, even if you could exactly reproduce the identical room and system setups? I have, however, listed examples of the kind of sounds that will be susceptible to the problem; go back and read them.

This latest focus on the need for a specific instance is simply more misdirection on your part. The real issue is not whether or not the reversal will occur on any given sound, but whether or not it will happen sooner or later during the course of your listening experience. On that issue, the answer is quite conclusive: if you use a single rear center, sooner or later it will. I (and others) have listed plenty of the supporting research for you, which you not only have already accepted, but you've even parroted back in a rather painful attempt to make an argument that succeeded only in establishing your inability to comprehend the implications of the words you were reading.

The phenomenon exists. Your continuous tactic is to change the subject from that fact--to height channels, chroma bug, matrix extraction, whatever. As a last resort, you try to turn the tables and make this about my experience. But underneath it all, you offer nothing but smokescreens, blatantly false representations, bizarro logic, and personal bias.
The one thing you have failed to present is any evidence whatsoever that the existence of this well-established problem is in any way in question.

Let me spell it out for you in itty bitty steps:

A. Front-back reversals affecting sound localization are well-established and proven.
B. Home theater systems involve the reproduction of sound.
C. Home theater systems are therefore susceptible to front-back reversals.

The solution to this problem, per THX, Dolby, and DTS guidelines, is to use two rear speakers. If simply following those specs is too daunting, then by all means use a single center speaker if it makes you happy. But if someone is going through the trouble to implement an EX / ES-capable system in the first place, why not simply do it right and follow the guidelines?

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Philip Brandes]

Well, Kevin, it appears you've expanded your previous post since my initial reply (which only addressed the first paragraph you initially posted), so if you're determined to put your foot deeper into your mouth, who am I to stop you?


Your capacity for speculation is unbounded, at least by the parameters of that pesky real world. If you're suggesting that sounds from a center placed on top of a TV will momentarily sound like they're coming from below the TV? That's not the kind of vertical reversal that the research is discussing. You really should make some effort to understand these issues before dragging them in as red herrings.

ONCE AGAIN: The subject of this thread is 6.1 vs 7.1. Nothing you have raised is relevant to that issue.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Steven Simon]

WARNING!!!
Philip and Kevin,
You both have made your point... Move on please.

 

[Brian Schucher]

awww c'mon this thread is great..

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Happy New Year!