7.1 vs 6.1 (1 Viewer)

[Dave Moritz]

Ya I know, guess I should have listed what I do have inable to give people a better idea what I want to upgrade, and what direction I want to go with my HT. Instead of list what I would like to have in a dream system, lmao. Oh by the way Juan nice system . I think I will be checking out the Rotel RSP-1066 as well. I would how ever like to check out your system sometime. Email me at [email protected] am looking forward to talking to you.

 

[Steve Schaffer]

Dave,

To address your original question:

Outside of the Lexicon and other high-end processors that will produce a stereo effect from the back surrounds, (I'm talking about the typical setup with an "affordable" receiver like the Pioneer VSX45TX, Denon 3803, HK 525), the typical "7.1" setup will use the usual 3 speakers across the front, 2 surrounds--one on either side of the listening position-- and 2 speakers placed almost directly behind the listening position, about a meter or less apart from each other--this is the THX recommended speaker postitioning for such a setup. The 2 "back surrounds" will both play the same thing, so the sound coming from those 2 won't be stereo. One could get virtually the same sound from a single center rear speaker in a 6.1 configuration.

In the last few years I've gone from a Yamaha RXV795 to a Sony VS333ES in 5.1 configuration to a Pioneer VSX45TX in a "7.1" configuration, with the speakers setup as described above. I never intended to go 7.1 with the Pioneer but I use fairly inexpensive Energy EXL series speakers, so popped for the back surrounds after I'd had the receiver for a few days.
The pair of back surrounds (XL150s) cost less than what a single center channel speaker would have cost, so I went with "7.1" instead of 6.1.

There is a noticeable improvement when listening to 6.1 encoded soundtracks--smoother rear panning and a more dramatic effect from things like planes flying overhead front to rear or thunderstorms.

My receiver as well as most all other 6.1/7.1 units will derive a matrix back surround channel when fed a non-DDEX/DTSes 5.1 soundtrack, and the result is quite nice imho, so you will get added value on all your 5.1 stuff, not just the EX/ES encoded soundtracks.

In my opinion if you're really considering replacing that excellent 995 anyway, it would be worthwhile to go for a 6.1/7.1 setup.

 

[Dave Moritz]

Thanks Steve
The plan is to have a budget of $4500 for the upgrade and I have been looking at the following models for my upgrade.
Pioneer Elite 49TXi
Denon AVR-5803
Sunfire Theater Grand 3 or Ultimate Reciever
B&K Reference 50 or AVR 507
Rotel RSP-1066
I will be definatly listening to nothing less than 6.1 and will look at models offering 7.1 processing from 5.1 and 6.1 sources. I cant wait to go to the CES show coming up

 

[Kevin C Brown]

In a well designed system, 6.1 is FAR more accurate than 7.1

That is extremely wrong in my experience.

I had 5.1 for 3 years. Then 6.1 for 1 year. I just switched to 7.1 over the holidays (thanks Santa!).

I found that 6.1 helps to fill in a gap in the soundfield in the back of the room you don't even realize is there with 5.1, until it isn't.

What I found with 7.1, is that the presence of 2 speakers, 1) solidifies that rear soundfield, and, 2) helps to diminish localization of the individual speakers back there.

I don't have Logic 7, but someday I will. Logic 7 (and THX Ultra2) weren't created just to give people more hardware to buy. There are some real, tangible, benefits there.

Currently, I'm using an Outlaw 950 with mono rears. Over the next few days, I'm going to drop in a 10 year old (fully analog) Shure DPL processor I have. It has a "mono" mode that does some type of decorrelation to create non-mono signals.

BTW, comb filtering ("lobing") is much more of a problem with low frequencies than high anyway. Most people *don't" use full range rears, so it isn't a big issue. No more so than the badly designed woofer-tweeter-woofer design of most center channels.

 

[Brian Schucher]

I MISS MY DC2!!!!!! :frowning: Should never have sold it....

 

[Kevin C Brown]

One other thing that 2 rears vs 1 helps with: reversal.

Reversal is a psychoacoustic phenomena whereby the brain can sometimes misconstrue sounds directly behind us as being directly in front of us. 2 speakers helps to minimze that.

 

[Dave Moritz]

I feel your pain Brain, I had a McIntosh MX-130 and even though it did not have digital surround. I wish I never would have traded it in :frowning:

 

[Brian Schucher]

My thing was that i bought a used DC2. Never thought i ever woulda had any Lex before. Problem... need another pair of speakers and another amp....no mo money Also thought i would want DVD/A - SACD and would have to spend another several hundred on the Sony TAP. So...i sold the Lex, got another newly released under 1k prepro with all new decoding and CES for a logic7 "type" of thing. Now i was able to buy the amp and speakers. Now i dont truly know how Logic7 would have been for me plus ive decided that multichannel audio is something im just not into. The only music listening i do at home would be a concert DVD. Now i want an MC1 and im going to end up selling my Outlaw 950. I DO like the Outlaw but feel i would be served better by the Lex for my 99% HT needs..

 

[VictorA]

"The plan is to have a budget of $4500 for the upgrade and I have been looking at the following models for my upgrade.

Pioneer Elite 49TXi
Denon AVR-5803
Sunfire Theater Grand 3 or Ultimate Reciever
B&K Reference 50 or AVR 507
Rotel RSP-1066"

Dave can you get all this for under $4500.00? Where do you shop? I have a budget of $10,000 for electronics and cabling and front projection. Any suggestions? Steve, Juan, Forrest?

 

[Jeffrey D Smith]

Question for the more educated.

It sounds like unless you have a high price processor you only get 1 audio source out of the 2 speakers in back of you in a 7.1 setup correct?

So if you already had a 6.1 setup you could parallel your rear surround channel to two speakers, right? I'm aware you would have to concern yourself with speaker impedances and current increases etc. But if you were determined enough you could jerry-rig up a 7.1 setup to try it without upgrading. (If you have a preamp for that channel it becomes even easier.)

Or amp I missing something?

Thanks.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Jeffrey- You are exactly right. However, to minimize the chance you'd fry the output stage on your amp, you'd probably want to put those 2 rear speakers in series, not parallel.

 

[Holger]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------
Question for the more educated.

It sounds like unless you have a high price processor you only get 1 audio source out of the 2 speakers in back of you in a 7.1 setup correct?

So if you already had a 6.1 setup you could parallel your rear surround channel to two speakers, right? I'm aware you would have to concern yourself with speaker impedances and current increases etc. But if you were determined enough you could jerry-rig up a 7.1 setup to try it without upgrading. (If you have a preamp for that channel it becomes even easier.)
------------------------------------------------------------



hi jeffrey,

you are right about your assumption. the two backsurround speakers delivers the same mono signal in a 6.1 system, that is exactly the reason why such a configuration can not be considered as a 7.1 system, even when 7.1 speakers are physically present. of course it is also possible to run the two backsurrounds as a second pair of (main)surrounds along with the two others. if you have a denon avr 3801/2/3 for example, in the setup menu this can be very easily configured as *non matrix*. the right side and back surround speaker will get the same signal then, as well as the left side and backsurround speaker.

however, if the system is mainly used in a 6.1 configuration it still appears a little problem: in a 6.1 setup the two backsurrounds should be placed pretty narrow to one another, usually no more then 1 meter apart. this will work quite good for dolby digital ex and dts es (matrix and discrete) since the backsurround signal on both backsurround speakers is identical like mentioned above. it will NOT work properly with the *non matrix* configuration, because for stereo surround effects 1 meter is of course far too narrow. so one with a 7.1 speakers system should decide if he/she wants to use the system as 6.1 or as 5.1 with two surrounds per side and then place the speakers correctly for the decided use. this problem will not appear of course, if someone is lucky enough to own a lexicon or a meridian decoder, or at least the harman kardon avr 8000.



regards, holger

 

[Jeffrey D Smith]

Series does make a lot more sense. Thanks for the clarification guys, I'll be trying it out once I move back into my appartment.

 

[Philip Brandes]

Holger wrote:



To further complicate things, this "close proximity" speaker arrangement is only for the THX Ultra II specification, and is intended to be used specifically with the dedicated THX Ultra II Cinema and Music modes on a dedicated Ultra II pre/pro. The Ultra II modes apply special decorrelation and other processing to create a wider rear spatial image and avoid auditory confusion problems. If you're not using an Ultra II processor, but rather a pre/pro with standard THX Surround EX or Dolby EX decoding (which uses alternative Pro Logic II for rear surround decoding), then using this rear speaker placement so close to the centerline is not as effective, as it leaves you vulnerable to exactly the kind of back-front reversal issues I described earlier in this thread.

All of which only underscores the need to understand how the processor and speaker layouts have to work together to get the best results.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Steve Schaffer]

Philip,

Just a quick question--are there any examples of specific dvds on which this back-front reversal thing might occur.
I have my back surrounds about 1 meter apart from each other and am using a Pioneer VSX45TX receiver which is only THX-select spec, not Ultra II.

I don't recall ever experiencing the back to front reversal, but haven't had this setup more than a couple of weeks, and only have a handful of DTSES or DDEX movies.

The manual for my receiver suggested the close placement of the 2 back surrounds, which is why I did it that way.

I have heard sounds on The Haunting that very definitely seemed to be coming from only the 2 back surrounds. Most other DTSES dvds seem to have a less "discrete" back surround or back center channel mix.

I'm pretty new to the "beyond 5.1" experience, so don't know what I should be listening for. I will say that so far I'm quite happy with the setup the way I have it.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Philip Brandes]

Hi Steve,

The reversal confusions won't happen on every sound, or even predictably--they are highly contextual, and very much dependent on expectation. The problem is, when they happen you don't know it--you simply hear a sound coming from the front.

As I mentioned, the phenomenon is worst with a single speaker along the centerline. Using two speakers, even if they're only slightly apart, will significantly cut down the chance of it happening (which is why THX, Dolby and DTS have always recommended dual rears). The wider apart you space the speakers, the less the chance of a reversal, but then you also lose some of the "center" imaging when using decoding that gives you a mono rear--like everything, it's all about trade-offs. As long as you're using rear speakers and getting imaging behind you, I wouldn't worry about it.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I personally believe that yeah, reversal exists, but it would be extremely rare in an HT because you have visual cues from the display too which helps your brain figure out where the sound is supposed to be coming from.

 

[Philip Brandes]

On the contrary, the fact that your concentration is so focused on the front makes it more likely that you will interpret ambiguous sounds as coming from that direction when they're meant to be heard from the rear.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

 

[Dave Moritz]

Hey Victor
Nice budget
It depends on what you are trying to acomplish and what features ect... IMHO lower end gear will not give me the level of audio/video performance I am looking for. In your case you may be totaly happy with something less expensive?
Here is some possible considerations for you.
Pioneer Elite VSX-45TX Reciever $1400
Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai DVD/DVD-A/SACD $1200
Klipsch RF-5 Speakers (Main Ch) $1500
Klipsch RC-3 ll Center Channel $370
Klipsch Rear Channel (Rear) $450
as far as a projection unit I really do not know what to suggest. I would like to get one myself but I have only auditioned a Sony DPL and that one was pricy, aprox 9K. You may want to look into rear projection HD sets? Mitsubishi Diamond and Pioneer Elite are two of the best rear projection IMHO. Hope this helps you Victor?
I mostly shop at Goodguys, Sound Factor and Audio Concepts here in So. Cal.
My Current HT configuration
Yamaha RX-V995 5.1 DTS/DD Reciever
Sony DVP-S9000 ES DVD Player
Pioneer DV-525 DVD Player
Marantz LV-520 Laserdisc Player
Denon DCD-1290 CD Player
Denon DTR-2000 DAT Recorder/Player
Panasonic PV-9660 VHS Recorder
Toshiba 31" Direct View TV
Soundcraftsman EQ
Altec Lancing Voice of the Theater / Main Ch
Polk CS-100 / Center Ch
Advent Marble / 2 pair for rear ch
Onkyo Integra CP-1055 ll Turntable w/ Pearl Cartridge

 

[Dave Moritz]

Any other suggestions?
Does anyone here own the Rotel pro/pro, B&K, Pioneer Elite, Denon ? If so what do you think and how are the configured? My reciever I am looking to upgrade is a Yamaha RX-V995 and I am looking to upgrade to a unit with at least 6.1, HD video compatibility, assignable digital inputs and just higher end performance. Of course there is a budget :frowning: I am looking at the $4500 area with a absolute cap of 5K. Need to be able to buy projection unit, upgrade speakers, dedicated SACD/Referance CD player and power amps. Oh ya a custom bult JBL 18" or 24" subwoofer