6.1 Matrix/Non-matrix db's (1 Viewer)

[JohnDG]

With the Denon 3802 there is are a couple of options for the surround back speakers. "Non-matrix" for DPL sources, and additionally "matrix" for 5.1 and 6.1 sources. Non-matrix replicates the sound from the side surrounds into the SB speaker(s); matrix extracts common signals from the two side surrounds for the SB.

Does anybody know if the db's are adjusted downward in the side surrounds in either of these modes in the 3802? Or what the specifications are for these modes?

And, while we are at it, does Denon have an email address for questions about their receivers that are not covered in the FAQ's?

jdg

 

[Scott Beaver]

My understanding of how the surround back modes work is a little different: “Matrix” pulls out the s.b. channel information “matrix encoded” on the L/R surround channels for formats such as DD/THX EX and DTS-ES Matrix.

“Non-Matrix” is for sources that don’t have any surround back info i.e. “plain” 5.1 sources. It mixes the signals from the surrounds in order to “make up” a signal for the surround back speakers. Think of it as the “I paid for a 7 channel receiver and the extra speakers and I want to hear something coming out of all them, even if the source is only 5.1.” mode.

As far as the db’s being adjusted down goes, I haven’t noticed any large variations in level when switching the back speakers in and out on 5.1 sources. So, if they are being down, it’s not a lot.

-Beave

 

[Larry Chanin]

Quote:

Hi John:
I suspect you are asking this question because your side surrounds are less noticable in Matrix mode.
Since we all agree that the Matrix process extracts the surround back channel information from the side surrounds, it would stand to reason that the side surrounds would sound less noticable when this process is engaged. This is not to say that the Denon is "recalibrating" your side surrounds to a lower db level, there's just less signal being sent to them and more being sent to the surround back speakers. Naturally the degree to which this is noticed will depend on the amount of matrixed signal present in the sound track.
I don't have a Denon, but my surround processor steers all in-phase information from the side surrounds to the surround back channels whether or not the signal is Dolby Digital Surround EX encoded or not. So for sound tracks with aggressive side surrounds I get excellent surround back effects from standard 5.1 movies. (And my side surrounds are less noticable as a result.) Perhaps the Denons would do the same thing with Matrix engaged. Its certainly worth a listen. If it works it may be superior to the Non-Matrix process where the side surrounds are merely reproduced in the rear.
In any event I wouldn't worry if the side surrounds aren't as noticable in Matrix since steering some of the signal away from them is what surround back processing is supposed to do.
Just a thought.
Larry

 

[JohnDG]

Larry,

Actually I found that 5.1 sources (using matrix) were fine, but 2.0 sources (DPL II) are much more noticeable in the back with the SB speaker than with the SB speaker turned off.

After calibration (TPM THX audio test) I found that I had to lower the SB speaker by 2 db's when watching DPL source material to lessen the extra sound. I left the SR/SL speakers at there calibrated levels. Matrix sound is fine at the calibrated levels for the SB. Please note that I have a very ackward setup that would not be applicable to the standard HT room.

When I get a chance, I'll disconnect the SR/SL speakers and run matrix vs. non-matrix db tests on the SB speaker. I think that this is going to be the only way to measure a difference in the output levels between the options.

jdg

 

[Scott Beaver]

Larry,

Please note that I have a very ackward setup that would not be applicable to the standard HT room.

I've got one bipole (the other was bad out of the box and I'm still waiting for the replacement) about 13' behind me. So if you're significantly closer to your speakers, it might explain why I'm not hearing a difference in S/B levels. Just a thought.

-Beave

 

[Earl Simpson]

OK/ Let's see if I can ask a question anyone can understand! Real challange.
Is 6.1 matrix the same as THX EX?
If not, what is the way to play EX on our 3802's? If it can be done.
Answer that one!

 

[JohnDG]

As for matrix for 5.1 sources, when you toggle through the options for 5.1, "MTRX, NON MTRX, and OFF' are your SB options. Per the manual for MTRX, "Surround back chnnel is reproduced using digital matrix processing." I believe this means that, like CC sound for the front's using DPL, sound that is on both the SL and SR speakers are removed from those speakers and played on the SB speaker(s).

This would also address how the 3802 supports (some?) THX EX sources. For example, I notice that "flags" are not detected for TPM DD EX, but the sound seems to be correctly reproduced in the 6th channel using the MTRX option. For DTS EX, the "signal detect" light is on.

jdg

 

[Scott Beaver]

Earl:

Note that this mode will also work with some 5.1-channel material that is not specifically encoded for it, although how pleasing the result will be depends on the particular program.

So how does Denon solve all of these problems?
1. They have 2 S/B decoding modes 1 for EX material and the other for material that isn't EX encoded.
2. They let you turn off AFDM and manually select the decoding mode so that you can play the non-flagged EX disks with EX decoding.
So we apply this rationale to the question of kind of material the different S/B modes are intended for:
1. Matrix: This is the EX decoder. It also works for 5.1 material but doesn't always sound great.
2. Non-Matrix: intended to allow you to listen to 5.1 sources on 7 speakers.
One other thought on the naming convention: Matrix for matrix encoded material (EX). Non-Matrix for Non-Matrix material (5.1)
Makes sense to me. But I could be wrong.
-Beave

 

[Earl Simpson]

I will see if I can find that quote. I think it was a 4802 description. I had to slim down my posts (cut an run)and now I can't remember where I found it!

 

[Earl Simpson]

898=

Listening Modes:

Stereo: all input is sent to the left and right front speakers. Subwoofer can also be used for playback.

Direct/Pure: for purest sound, all sound is sent to the front left and right speakers only and no sound is sent to the subwoofer. Pure mode switches off display lights and video circuitry.

Mono Movie: creates a surround sound effect from mono sources. The center channel delivers unprocessed sound, whereas the other channels deliver center channel sound processed with an appropriate amount of reverberation to recreate the atmosphere of a movie theater.

Dolby Digital Surround: standard Dolby Digital with up to 5.1 channels

DTS: standard DTS with up to 5.1 channels

DTS-ES Discrete 6.1: with the addition of the surround back channel (speakers located behind you), this new format has all 6.1 channels recorded independently for a completely discrete digital format. The surround back channel adds spaciousness and depth to the soundtrack.

DTS-ES Matrix: this format has the surround back channel matrix encoded into the left and right surround channels. In this case the surround back channel is not discrete, but the decoded information from the surround back speakers adds depth relative to standard DTS software.

DTS Neo 6: this mode simulates 6.1-channel output from a two-channel source such as a VCR or CD player. There is a Cinema mode, which makes movement more realistic. There is also a Music mode, which adds a natural spaciousness to the music.

Pro Logic II: this mode is a new generation 5-channel surround system that provides performance between 4 channel Pro Logic Surround and 5.1 channel Dolby Digital Surround. This mode can be set to the Movie mode designed for playing movies and the Music mode designed for listening to music.

THX Cinema: conventional 5.1channel THX mode for use with Dolby Digital, DTS and Dolby Pro Logic sources

THX Surround EX: allows you to extract an extra channel, which is added in the mixing of some soundtracks using Dolby Digital Surround EX. This is the surround back channel which places sound behind the listener. Note that this mode will also work with some 5.1-channel material that is not specifically encoded for it, although how pleasing the result will be depends on the particular program. This unit has amplification for the back surround speakers as well.

4802=

THX Ultra Certification: This unit has been built and tested to conform to the high standards of sound and build quality set by the THX Ultra Certification program. This receiver is equipped with a "THX Cinema" mode that may be used to process movie soundtracks so they are heard as the movie directors intended them to be heard. All THX Select Certified receivers include Re-Equalization, Timbre Matching, Adaptive Decorrelation, Bass Management, Bass Peak Level Manager, and Loudspeaker Position Time Synchronization (delay).

THX Surround EX 7.1 Decoding: THX Surround EX soundtracks have an additional surround channel signal matrix encoded into the standard surround channel signals of a Dolby Digital soundtrack. When a THX Surround EX soundtrack is decoded and played through a 7.1 channel system, you will hear more detailed imaging behind you; this feature brings more depth, spacious ambience and sound localization to the home theater experience than ever before. Although THX Surround EX decoding produces the best results with soundtracks that have been recorded with THX Surround EX processing, the THX Surround EX 7.1 Decoding feature can be used, with varying results, with all 5.1 channel Dolby Digital, DTS or MPEG soundtracks. THX Surround EX 7.1 playback requires a total of 4 surround speakers; one pair of surround speakers should be placed to the sides of the listening position, and the other pair of surround speakers are supposed to be placed behind the listening position. The receiver is equipped with amplification for all 4 surround speakers.

Dolby Pro Logic II: Enjoy 2-channel stereo recordings in stunning 5.1-channel surround playback. The Dolby Pro Logic II decoder reproduces dynamic 5.1-channel surround sound not only from normal 5.1-channel DVD but from 2-channel sources as well. Dolby Pro Logic II uses matrix decoding technology that has been dramatically improved over Pro Logic. With Pro Logic II, for instance, the Surround (Rear) channels are in stereo (only mono with Pro Logic) and playback covers the full frequency range (only up to 7 kHz with Pro Logic). These improvements let you enjoy a wide variety of 2-channel sources with the exciting effects of 5.1-channel surround sound. In Dolby Pro Logic II, there is a Movie mode that creates a sound space suitable for movies, a Music mode that does the same for music, and a Pro Logic emulation feature that reproduces sound effects in the way that conventional Pro Logic does. In addition, you can also add the soundfield effects of THX Post Processing to Dolby Pro Logic II in Movie mode to brilliantly enhance the excitement of 2-channel A/V sources.

DTS 96/24 5.1 Decoding for DVD-Video: High-quality 96-kHz, 24-bit (96/24) sound playback from ordinary DVD-Video recordings is limited to only two channels and there are also limitations on the picture. DVD-Video recorded in DTS 96/24, however, allows high-quality 5.1-channel sound playback in full-quality, full-motion video. DTS 96/24 sources can be played in the multi-channel mode on the AVR-4802 with high sound quality of 96kHz/24-bits or 88.2kHz/24-bits.

DTS-ES Extended Surround: DTS-ES includes the Surround Back (SB; also known as Surround Rear) channel in addition to the existing 5.1 surround channels of front left, front right, center, surround left, surround right, and LFE, enabling surround playback from a total of 6.1 channels. Due to differences in surround signal recording methods, DTS-ES offers two types of signal formats:

DTS-ES Discrete 6.1: Discrete 6.1 utilizes the digital discrete method to record all 6.1 channels, including the newly-added surround back channel, as independent channels. Since the surround left, surround right, and surround back channels are fully independent, sound can be freely designed and sound images can move freely and rapidly amongst each other within a background sound that envelopes the room from all sides.

DTS-ES Matrix 6.1: In the Matrix 6.1 format, the surround back channel is matrix encoded in advance to the surround left and surround right channels, and when a matrix decoder plays them back, they are decoded into separate surround left, surround right, and surround back channels.

DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 + THX Post Processing: By adding THX Post Processing to the localized sound and spatial expression of DTS-ES Discrete 6.1, your listening room is almost completely transformed into a full-featured cinema.

Still looking/off the crutchfield site??????????

 

[Scott Beaver]

Earl,
Thanks for the info.
Here's a qoute from Dolby's "A Listeners Guide to Dolby Digital EX" which you can find here It says pretty much the same thing.

Although Dolby Digital EX decoding is intended for soundtracks that have been Surround EX encoded, you may find that some regular 5.1-channel soundtracks sound quite good with EX decoding switched on. Its effectiveness varies from soundtrack to soundtrack, so be sure to try it both ways.

-Beave