3802 x-over

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Yogi, Jul 31, 2002.

  1. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    I have a 3802 and its x-over doesnt go below 80 Hz. My mains are capable of going down to 40 Hz and my Velo sub is capable of going down to 23 Hz. After adding a Proceed BPA2 to my system for the two fronts I have always felt that my sub has become the weak link compared to the quick tight bass of the Proceed. So last night I put my sub to internal crossover (so it now uses the internal crossovers of the Velo) and set it to 50 HZ and in the 3802 setup I set the LFE to LFE+Mains. So now I have the mains getting the LFE as well. Now my mains reproduce LFE down to 40 Hz and my sub takes over below 40 HZ. The bass in now so much better blended into the whole system. I would suggest anyone with full range speakers to use the internal xovers of your (active) sub and set the sub's xover to where your mains start to fade.

    Just thought I might share this with all of you, even though it might be painfully obvious to some of you that this is the way to go.
     
  2. Ken Janisse

    Ken Janisse Extra

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    Yogi, just so I am clear, your mains are getting a full range signal including LFE and your sub is getting a signal below 80 Hz from the receiver and you are then using the subs crossover to filter out anything above 50 Hz? Question...does your sub get a signal when you listen to just 2 channel stereo?

    My setup is similar to yours I think. I have my Yamaha 3200 set to "both" for subwoofer which I believe is the same as "Main + LFE" on your 3802. I then have my sub crossover cranked to maximum (150 Hz). While it's not bad, it does get kinda boomy on certain material. I guess I could just lower the sub's crossover to 50 Hz (it's lowest) and see what happens!
     
  3. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    Yes my mains are now getting the full signal, LFE and all. and the sub is getting everything below 80 Hz from 3802's crossovers. The sub is filtering out everything above 50 hz as I have set it to 50 hz. So my mains are going down to 40 Hz and the sub is taking care of everything below that. There is not much overlap between the where the mains give out and where the sub takes off (12 db/octave rolloff in the sub crossovers).

    When you set your sub to 150 Hz you are basically setting it for external xover and it gets all the signals that the Yamaha sends them asuming its 80-100 Hz xover on the yamaha. If you have large floor standing speakers check out their frequency response sheet and see the lowest they can go in freq. Then go and set your sub in internal xover mode and set its xover to about 10 hz above your mains so there is reasonable overlap. you will find that the sub blends in with the rest of the speakers better that way. Try that out and let us know of your findings.
     
  4. EarleD

    EarleD Supporting Actor

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    Yogi,

    i think you got it mixed up.. When you set the denon to LFE+Main your sub is getting the LFE + some of the mains channels bass. The mains are getting run as full range only. The LFE is not being redirected to the mains.

    If this is wrong I'm sure somebody will chime in.

    Its great to see someone from CT here, Im in Wallingford.

    Earle
     
  5. Chuck Kent

    Chuck Kent Supporting Actor

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    Earle is correct. The LFE+MAINS is a subwoofer bass mode. Not a mains mode. The mains are receiving only their own bass.

    The only time the "Large" mains would get more than their own bass is if the subwoofer mode is turned off. Then, they would receive LFE &/or redirected bass.
     
  6. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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    The problem with this configuration is that any information in the LFE (.1) channel above 50Hz will be lost. That is why the crossover should be bypassed if using the sub out. If you want to only use the sub for low freq below the speaker rolloff, then set mains to "Large", sub to "Off" and use line connectors from the main preouts to the sub (or speaker leads in parallel to the mains).
     
  7. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    Hmmm... I must have it wrong then. In this setting I must be losing the information from 50-80Hz and maybe the lost bass was making my system sound less boomy. The bass from my mains after the separate amp hookup is so much better that I had a feeling that my sub was smearing the bass. So this way I only sent the lowest notes to the sub but I didnt realize that I was loosing LFE information along the way. Thanks for the help guys. I'll be putting back my sub to direct mode (utilizing 3802's xovers). I listen to music in 2 ch only in ext-in mode. So this way I get true analog bypass without and xovers for the sub. I'll have to think of a way to make my movies sound better now. Maybe the ICBM is the way to go. What do you guys think?

    BTW Denon's manual is a bad joke and its hard to understand what they mean, atleast to me.

    Thanks guys.
     
  8. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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    Try the setup I suggested. Then your main speakers will produce the upper LFE and your sub will only be used for below their rolloff - no need to compromise your listening or go to the extra expense of an ICBM (yet).
     
  9. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    Craig, So I use the L/R pre outs of my Denon (after turning off the Sub) into the Sub and then use the internal xovers of the sub to take up where the mains roll off and then take the L/R line out from my sub into my amp for the L/R mains? Do you think my 2 channel direct listening would be compromised having the preouts go thru the sub due to added noise, etc from the sub amp in between?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  10. EarleD

    EarleD Supporting Actor

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    Yogi,

    I have a ICBM that I use for music only whether its SACD or redbook CD. When Im watching a movie my 3802 controls all the crossovers.

    If you want to come over one day and check it out snend me a email and we can work out a time. Im in Wallingford so its only around a 15 min drive from Middletown.

    LMK

    Earle
     
  11. Greg Haynes

    Greg Haynes Supporting Actor

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  12. Chuck Kent

    Chuck Kent Supporting Actor

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    Greg: Direct mode with the sub turned down to off should be no different than the external input scenario. Both are fully analog pathways with no highpassing (speakers run as fullrange.) Even if you want to augment the mains with a bit of the sub, the speaker pathway remains fully analog.

    Analog signals are split into 2 identical signals. One is sent to the volume control and then on to the speaker amps. The other is sent to a ADC, thru a digital lowpass crossover, converted back to analog, and then sent on to the volume control and the sub output. This is why the sub can be turned off and doesn't affect the speakers.
     
  13. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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    Yogi, that is EXACTLY the configuration, I meant [​IMG]. The only difference from using the sub out is that the sub xover will now be filtering out more higher frequency stuff so there should be no sonic degradation - the sub amp will be used in either configuration.
    The biggest issue is whether your mains will rolloff the added LFE gracefully (and if the 3802 will drive the extra load) - if not, then an ICBM (or equivalent) is the only solution but it costs you nothing to try this first[​IMG].
     

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