20th century fox TV archives MOD program (1 Viewer)

[Mark Collins]

Gosh what a debate. I know you all have your view points. I respectfully do not agree with some of you. I just cannot seem to get my one point across about the TV releases. When you cannot get people to understand what you are saying that is the problem of the communicator which would be me.


Please let me try and clear that up now. TV program requests were given to James Finn along with Films we would like to see early in James thread. The thread contained both Film and TV requests by members.


I myself very early in James thread posted a link to this very thread for James to see what Fox TV series were being requested. I also in that same post asked about the status of the TV Archive Program from Fox. I made a second post with the films I was interested in.


I put the link to this thread in that early post on James thread and I have to say I am now a bit nervous.


I worry that he will become offended even by the way some of the film requests were made on his thread. My opinion is that everyone here should be treated with respect. I should think an industry insider who came here on his own most certainly deserves it.


James Finn came here to answer why Voyage was being held up years ago. He also came here to answer other TV series questions.


Since his recent return he has answered questions and said he would get back to us with answers. He has always spoken and treated members here as intelligent equals. I respect James and find him a kind and generous guy. I once again thank him for coming back to HTF.


The last thing is this. Hell yes I want to hear Peyton Place is coming out! I thank all those here that have wished me luck in the effort. My posts here on this thread though are not for just Peyton Place. I want to see all fans get a shot at what they want.


I did of course in my post to James placed a link to the Peyton Place Mega thread.


Hey you cannot blame a guy for trying LOL

 

[Silverking]

Mark , I am puzzled as to why you think this guy would be 'offended'.

I would rather wait until we have actually seen some positive plans or releases before gushing with praise though.

Either way I hope you get your 'Peyton Place'as you certainly try hard enough.

 

[jimmyjet]

hi mark,


good work.


if fox owns room 222, could you add that to the next go-around of requests


there were quite a few other people besides myself, who liked the show quite a bit

 

[Mark Collins]

TV series were not mentioned. I am still glad that some us were able to bring to James Finns attention in posts on that thread some of the TV series we would like to see released. I also was glad to have the opportunity to ask about the status of the TV Archive series in my post on his thread. Perhaps it will shake something up at Fox and we will get answers about our favorite Fox shows in the very very far distant future LOL.


Mark

 

[John Karras]

hi mark,


good work.


if fox owns room 222, could you add that to the next go-around of requests


there were quite a few other people besides myself, who liked the show quite a bit

Given the fact that Fox licensed the show to Shout, failed to remaster it and offered up old tape transfers from 16mm prints where it died after 2 season releases due to poor sales puts this request at the top of the "wishful thinking" list.

 

[jimmyjet]

Given the fact that Fox licensed the show to Shout, failed to remaster it and offered up old tape transfers from 16mm prints where it died after 2 season releases due to poor sales puts this request at the top of the "wishful thinking" list.

why not stick to your own requests instead of belittling someone else's requests

 

[LeoA]

As I see it, he's just being realistic based off everything that we actually have to use to arrive to a conclusion about its likelihood of accomplishing anything.


He's not belittling your suggestion. For all you know, he might love the show even more than you do and echo your thoughts entirely, but just doesn't see what good posting it over there would ever accomplish.


But all I can say is that I'm glad that I'm not a fan (I like the introduction music, the old 1920's era school, and think Karen Valentine is cute, but that's about as far as its appeal goes for me personally). This situation would be nothing but frustrating for me if this was one of my favorites.


Not only are we talking about FOX and its history with classic tv releases and lack of evidence of any great shift about to happen in that area, but a show that very likely burned its one chance on this format, albeit likely through no fault of its own, by virtue of its horrible syndication transfers that were used.


Hard to picture a happy ending here, Jimmy. Not belittling anyone wanting this and requesting it, but I sadly just don't see it happening for the number of fans that love this one.


But hopefully it, The Ghost & Mrs. Muir, Twelve O'Clock High, and a number of other memorable classics manage to somehow escape and proof the naysayers all wrong.


As a fellow naysayer, I'd love to be proven dead wrong...

 

[jimmyjet]

thanks leo for your nice post !!

 

[Frank Soyke]

As I see it, he's just being realistic based off everything that we actually have to use to arrive to a conclusion about its likelihood of accomplishing anything.


He's not belittling your suggestion. For all you know, he might love the show even more than you do and echo your thoughts entirely, but just doesn't see what good posting it over there would ever accomplish.


But all I can say is that I'm glad that I'm not a fan (I like the introduction music, the old 1920's era school, and think Karen Valentine is cute, but that's about as far as its appeal goes for me personally). This situation would be nothing but frustrating for me if this was one of my favorites.


Not only are we talking about FOX and its history with classic tv releases and lack of evidence of any great shift about to happen in that area, but a show that very likely burned its one chance on this format, albeit likely through no fault of its own, by virtue of its horrible syndication transfers that were used.


Hard to picture a happy ending here, Jimmy. Not belittling anyone wanting this and requesting it, but I sadly just don't see it happening for the number of fans that love this one.


But hopefully it, The Ghost & Mrs. Muir, Twelve O'Clock High, and a number of other memorable classics manage to somehow escape and proof the naysayers all wrong.


As a fellow naysayer, I'd love to be proven dead wrong...

Love to be wrong as well and see a beautiful laundry list of shows labeled coming soon like 12 0' Clock High, Peyton Place, Julia,Trapper John, etc. I'm sorry though I just don't see it. Their track record with the vintage stuff frankly just stinks. That's the bottom line. They have shown ZERO commitment to their older TV series.

 

[Frank Soyke]

Given the fact that Fox licensed the show to Shout, failed to remaster it and offered up old tape transfers from 16mm prints where it died after 2 season releases due to poor sales puts this request at the top of the "wishful thinking" list.

I'd like to see the show finished as well. Not one of my favorites but a decent show. I think people sometimes romanticize what the original prints of this show must have looked like which make the transfers seem that much worse. Be mindful that this show was filmed in the late 60's-early 70's when the bright shiny technicolor of the mid 60's shows like Gilligan's Island and Jeannie was going out of vogue and being replaced by a more grainy dull film look of contemporaries like Odd Couple and All In The Family, so while the transfers don't look that great, I'd be hard pressed to believe they look that much worse than the original airings. We just forget that sometimes. Let's face it, if you were looking for the bright shiny colors of the Ponderosa on TV in the early 70's, you would be searching for a while.

 

[jimmyjet]

i was told that there was a 10-20 year period in which tape was used on most shows, instead of film. but i was thinking that this period included the '80s.


first i have heard of the film quality going down, in the late 60s or 70s


but even so, it is still bound to be much better than my memory, unless the film itself has deteriorated. and i have been told here that this is seldom the case.


the over-the-air quality back then was by far the limiting factor. most of you probably have forgotten about just how unclear it was.


a year or so ago, someone sent me a disc of some old tv show episodes of how it actually looked. i could hardly believe the fuzziness in the pictures. and the halo around the head, etc.


the faces were not clear. i almost felt like i was looking thru a dirty window. i dont see anything on youtube today that is even close to being that blurry.


so i am pretty sure that i would be very happy with any video quality, if they went back to the original film. i am just finishing watching the fugitive on youtube. that is way clearer than original over the air ever was.

 

[Mark Collins]

I am very happy that the information on films and perhaps TV series will not end here. The fact that James will be at the HTF Meet I think shows that Fox studios seems to really be trying to respond to our requests.


I hope when that time comes we who posted about TV series on James thread will hear something at that time.


I joked on James thread about Peyton Place but I hope all fans might hear something.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

i was told that there was a 10-20 year period in which tape was used on most shows, instead of film. but i was thinking that this period included the '80s.


first i have heard of the film quality going down, in the late 60s or 70s


but even so, it is still bound to be much better than my memory, unless the film itself has deteriorated. and i have been told here that this is seldom the case.


the over-the-air quality back then was by far the limiting factor. most of you probably have forgotten about just how unclear it was.


a year or so ago, someone sent me a disc of some old tv show episodes of how it actually looked. i could hardly believe the fuzziness in the pictures. and the halo around the head, etc.


the faces were not clear. i almost felt like i was looking thru a dirty window. i dont see anything on youtube today that is even close to being that blurry.


so i am pretty sure that i would be very happy with any video quality, if they went back to the original film. i am just finishing watching the fugitive on youtube. that is way clearer than original over the air ever was.

The 70s and 80s were indeed heavy on videotaped shows.


The filmed shows from the era that have been remastered look great. Cheers, for example. Beautiful after its 2001 remastering. The videotaped shows, like All in the Family... well, they are what they are. And you can see the quality of late-80s videotaped shows with the last few seasons of GThe Facts of Life on DVD. Not that great.


As far as film quality in the 80s... Hey, look at Star Trek:TNG on Blu. They went back to the original film and it looks beautiful. Compare it to the old video masters, and it looks even better.


Anyway, Fox MOD shows.


The ones that come from Amazon are decent. I've got a couple American Dad volumes, the Bob's Burger sets, and Gracepoint. Though I do wish, like everyone else, they would do something with the older shows, be it Shout, Olive, or just more through Amazon. I want the rest of Newhart and NYPD Blue and LA Law.

 

[Dave Lawrence]

Anyway, Fox MOD shows.

The ones that come from Amazon are decent. I've got a couple American Dad volumes, the Bob's Burger sets, and Gracepoint. Though I do wish, like everyone else, they would do something with the older shows, be it Shout, Olive, or just more through Amazon. I want the rest of Newhart and NYPD Blue and LA Law.

I agree. None of the Fox MOD releases so far (that I know of) have interested me. Hopefully they will start paying at least some attention to their old shows, from the relatively older stuff, like the 3 you listed (which I agree with) on back further into the early 80s and 70s and - dare I say it - perhaps even further back than that.

 

[DeWilson]

i was told that there was a 10-20 year period in which tape was used on most shows, instead of film. but i was thinking that this period included the '80s.


first i have heard of the film quality going down, in the late 60s or 70s


but even so, it is still bound to be much better than my memory, unless the film itself has deteriorated. and i have been told here that this is seldom the case.


the over-the-air quality back then was by far the limiting factor. most of you probably have forgotten about just how unclear it was.


a year or so ago, someone sent me a disc of some old tv show episodes of how it actually looked. i could hardly believe the fuzziness in the pictures. and the halo around the head, etc.


the faces were not clear. i almost felt like i was looking thru a dirty window. i dont see anything on youtube today that is even close to being that blurry.


so i am pretty sure that i would be very happy with any video quality, if they went back to the original film. i am just finishing watching the fugitive on youtube. that is way clearer than original over the air ever was.

16mm film was used for TV syndication through the early 1980's - The studios switched to tape masters and taking the time to make edits to fit more commercials around 1983,

However, 16mm TV prints were in circulation through the decade for various reasons, such Long term contracts which stations-station groups investing in "Library" prints, Limited syndication not worth the expense of new video prints and so forth.


The move to video was just a replacement of the procedure that would happen every so often with 16mm - new prints swapped in to replace old ones. Stations had switched over to 1" VT in the early 1980's which was then cost effective for the studios to distribute on tape, rather than film - 2" VT was costly and bulky. Some studios even offered shows on 3/4" U-Matic for smaller stations, or convenience for the broadcaster - Which was even more cost effective.

There was never in decline in quality of 16mm prints - it was always a high quality format (More on that below) It was the EQUIPMENT of the time.

Stations would have telecine units and the projectors (with the shutter specially prepared and in sync so there is no flickering) would feed into a TUBE VIDEO CAMERA. In the early 1980's they developed CCD pick-ups which gave better reproduction. Before that, Local stations would have varying quality to Telecine equipment and cameras. The Networks had superior equipment, since they had the budgets.

Over-the-air NTSC VHF & UHF was hardly unclear - especially with a good roof antenna. Cable Companies took their signals off the air directly until the early 2000's when the fiber-optic links in most major markets were set up.

However, it seems to me you've never seen good 16mm to video transfers - sounds like that disc you got was poorly made transfer and dupy video. A clean 16mm print looks VERY GOOD then, and now, broadcast or transferred. Don't confuse the format with poor examples either then or now.

Yes, it has a look, and looks different, but because it's a smaller format than 35mm - it's a reduction format, but clean 16mm prints - color & B&W with a proper transfer can yield good sharp quality. results.

16mm prints run over and over again, especially stations with long term contracts or bicycle prints going between station, are going to get some wear, the prints were a working format. Even a 35mm print run over and over will show age. It's just like that same myth that all old silent films flicker, run at different speeds and all look poor.

 

[DeWilson]

Bottom line, Fox has given us every reason to be doubtful about their intentions. I don't blame these folks one bit for not lining up to drink the cool aid.

People need to stay objective based on pass history of the studio.

Some people can be VERY passionate about the shows they love and the studios that produced them.

 

[Neil Brock]

The main reason why 16mm syndication prints looked worse over time is due to the Eastman color system that was used for the film. It was a lousy system and after a few years the prints would either turn red or the color would fade. Thankfully they switched to better color for prints struck in the 80s but shows from the 60s and 70s all had that problem. That's why until the syndicators started sending shows out to stations on tape in the 80s, syndicated television looked so bad.

 

[DeWilson]

The main reason why 16mm syndication prints looked worse over time is due to the Eastman color system that was used for the film. It was a lousy system and after a few years the prints would either turn red or the color would fade. Thankfully they switched to better color for prints struck in the 80s but shows from the 60s and 70s all had that problem. That's why until the syndicators started sending shows out to stations on tape in the 80s, syndicated television looked so bad.

But that is the studio's fault in not using good quality stock just to save a buck or two.

Kodachrome was better than Eastman and available at the time for instance. The Studios just didn't get that these prints would be in service for longer periods and would have been worth the investment for the cost difference between the two formats.

As for B&W prints and good color prints (Low Fade Stock, Kodachrome,etc) The format still gave good results.

 

[Frank Soyke]

No news is EXPECTED news. Sorry for my fellow vintage TV fans that drank the Mr Finn cool aid. Really wanted to be wrong on his one.

 

[Neil Brock]

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. Look, we all have our favorites among shows that either failed originally or have been forgotten over time. Yeah, it would be nice if we could all have access to all of the shows we wanted and there was a gigantic internet site where every show was archived and available for viewing. Just not possible nor economically feasible. UCLA and Library of Congress have the 2 best archives in the country but neither are accessible to the general public so their collections are no different than shows locked in studio vaults. Not sure how Wisconsin Film Archive works but they have every episode of every show Ziv produced in their collection. As for the Fox shows, they aren't remastering Peyton Place so even if they did do something with it, which is extremely unlikely, it won't look any better than your recordings from Romance or FoxNet.