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2007-2008 NFL season discussion thread

Discussion in 'After Hours Lounge (Off Topic)' started by Patrick Sun, Aug 12, 2007.

  1. Scott Merryfield

    Scott Merryfield Executive Producer

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  2. Trey Fletcher

    Trey Fletcher Second Unit

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    I think it has less to do with that, and more to do with the fact that your average NFL fan couldn't care less about how "pretty" a spokesperson is. I mean, does the average football fan sitting in a sports bar on an NFL Sunday, really care if the guy hawking DirecTV has GQ looks? And personality does have something to do with it. Brett Favre has the best numbers in the history of the NFL, but did you see There's Something about Mary?
     
  3. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Yeah, like being the next Cowboys head coach and the highest paid assistant coach in the NFL until then.
     
  4. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    If you saw the amount of women in the NE area who wear Tom Brady jerseys (even pink ones, ugggh), you'd realize the possibility of an untapped market far beyond your "average" football fan. Besides, are you saying that Manning's relatively unattractive looks give him an advantage in the marketplace? Remember, we are discussing the reason for a HUGE disparity in endorsements, not an ugly guy getting as many as a good looking guy. I can see you saying looks don't matter, but if that were the case, they'd have equal coverage, no?

    The simple fact is Brady is a 6th round draft pick, playing his whole career (up till now) with relatively unflashy teammates on a team that can best be described as relatively boring when it comes to style or flash. Shoot, they singlehandedly ruined the "Let's introduce the STAR-ting lineups" individual showcase at the Superbowl by refusing to be introduced as anything but a team. It took Brady 3 Superbowl wins to stop being an "underdog" and even after an undefeated season there are some still chomping at the bit to try and tear him down (even in this thread). The NFL has never given Brady & Co. anything that they didn't have to earn 10 times over. My feeling is that it's due to his 6th round draft number making a mockery of the highly touted NFL selection process. It's only my opinon, but I've yet to see someone prove it differently. I ask you, do you really think the NFL feels great about having to (possibly) showcase a 6th round pick who was a backup in college as the "Greatest Quarterback Ever?"

    Be honest . . .
     
  5. Chuck Mayer

    Chuck Mayer Lead Actor

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    Jeff,
    You know I like and respect you. I wanted to start with that, because this is a rather raw post [​IMG]

    The "world is against us" nonsense that Belicheck feeds his players (and it works, because few football players are MENSA members) doesn't really fly in the real world.

    As for late round picks - Montana got more adverts than Elway and their situations are identical (one highly touted, the other not touted at all). And he's still called the greatest QB ever. Staubach was drafted in the TENTH round.

    The NFL "gave" the Pats a playoff win against the Raiders in 2001. They "gave" the Pats a "no PI call" game against the Colts where Colts WRs were mercilessly (and illegally) held. I have heard nothing but Pats this year in sports programs, and rightly so. So please, spare me the "salt of the earth/blue collar" aspect of the Pats. They got lucky with Brady in the 6th. It was the right situation and right system, and he was able to win 3 close SB's with one of the best defenses in the NFL.

    But marketing doesn't care about any of that. It cares about money. They feel Peyton can make them more. Probably because he is a more popular player. I am sure plenty of skanks in NE wear his jersey, just as plenty of soccer moms in the Midwest wear Peyton's. This just in...the Midwest has a MUCH larger population than Maine, NH, RI, Mass, and CT.

    There is no conspiracy. Peyton probably tracks as more likeable - he certainly comes across in his interviews as more likeable. I think the burden is on you to prove the marketing/NFL/Draft conspiracy - since Occam's Razor indicates otherwise. I'll use the Montana-Elway point to rest my position.

    And I go after the Pats, not for Brady, but because of their overbearing smug fans who buy into that "us against the world" malarky. I hate Red Sox fans as well [​IMG] They spent decades hating the Yankees, then cheered when their team turned into them. The worst kind of fan is the hypocritical one.
     
  6. Dheiner

    Dheiner Gazoo
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    Well, it never seemed to slow them down with Montana (3rd), Favre (2nd), or Unitas (undrafted).
     
  7. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    Chuck,

    Good points, although the "skanks" vs. soccer moms was quite uncalled for, and brought your post down . . . a lot. Unless you call my summa cum laude from Northeastern U, soon to be going to Law School niece a "skank", that is. She also knows more about football and hockey than most male "fans" I know. That aside, I understand emotion and I won't let it detract from your valid points.

    So I guess I'll let it drop, except for this - "It was the right situation and right system". Horseshit. Brady proved this year that the "system" was not due to him, it was due to the lack of talent surrounding him (outside of his line). Brady with mediocre receivers wins Superbowls. Brady with Manning/Montana type receivers goes undefeated. That isn't a system, that is talent. He proved this year that beyond a doubt he can go outside the "safe, short, don't take any risks and you won't make a mistake" mold that everyone says he was "made" for; and which has been used to criticize him in the past. He broke records this year with long bombs, short screens, early blowouts, last minute drives and won at least one playoff game by running the ball down the opponent's throat (even throwing a block or two himself). That's about as complete a talent as there is, "system" or no "system".
     
  8. Chuck Mayer

    Chuck Mayer Lead Actor

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    The skank comment was offhand...it wasn't aimed at any actual female. So don't sweat that one.

    As for your offense this year, it boasts the finest pass protection I've ever seen. More than receivers, that is the most critical element of an offense. I'd also argue that Moss is your offensive MVP. The two most prolific offenses in NFL history share a player. Coincidence?

    Combine the extra second or two Brady gets from his outstanding O-line with the mismatch Moss gives every defensive backfield, and you get a HOF year for the ages. Even with that, Manning got his 49 TD passes in 80 less passes than Brady (because he came out during a blowout), without that O-line, and without a Moss [​IMG] And still NE fans insulted him and his team on "running it up" in 2004.

    But my point wasn't that Brady wasn't a good QB anywhere. That's why I didn't call him a system QB. I included the key words "right situation", which includes the coach and his time on the bench. At no point, even with my irrational dislike of the Pats, have I ever claimed Brady was anything other than one of the best TWO QBs in the game. He is. He an Manning are in a class of their own. Brady seems to have more grit, but LESS is asked of him. Less has always been asked of him. Did you see the Colts D last week??? I watched the whole game...and I didn't see them [​IMG] That said, Brady *IS* more clutch. My system simply meant that Brady found himsef the right head coach, just as Peyton found himself the right Offensive Coordinator.

    So here you go:
    1) Brady
    1a) Manning

    There is no 2. But Manning is a better spokesman. He's not a better leader. He's not as good looking. And he doesn't leave his pregnant girlfriend for a Brazilian supermodel who smells like DiCaprio (ZING!). Manning is the face of his team. Brady, for everything he has done, is still behind Belicheck as the face of that team. Consider that lucky. Manning's probably dealt with more pressure (media and professional scrutiny) than any pro QB in history, except maybe Elway.
     
  9. Scott Merryfield

    Scott Merryfield Executive Producer

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    While there is no doubt that Brady is very talented and has earned the praise and awards, I think what Chuck was getting at is Brady could have easily ended up in someplace like Detroit and never been heard from again. This is a situation where both the player and the team lucked out as perfect fits for each other. It's not like New England outfoxed the entire league by drafting him, since they passed on him for five rounds, too.

    Of course, the same could be said for many players. Would Favre have had the same career if the Falcons did not trade him to the Pack? Montana if he was drafted by New Orleans?
     
  10. Jeff Gatie

    Jeff Gatie Lead Actor

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    Naw, it was only aimed at an entire fanbase covering 6 states. But you are right I won't sweat it. [​IMG]

    Peace! (And here's to Manning being the Dan Marino of his time, which ain't too bad. [​IMG] ).
     
  11. Chuck Mayer

    Chuck Mayer Lead Actor

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    The skank wasn't aimed at all. Trust me. My first love was in Kittery, Maine, and she was a great girl.

    As for Marino: Nope...Manning won a SB, coming back from a huge deficit to beat the "dynasty" of his decade [​IMG]
     
  12. Scott Merryfield

    Scott Merryfield Executive Producer

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    Actually, Brady was the starter for most of two seasons at Michigan after Griese left, including leading them to a Big Ten co-championship and Orange Bowl win in the '98 season. He did share playing time with Drew Henson in '99, though. It was just always assumed that Henson would be the successful one at the next level.
     
  13. Trey Fletcher

    Trey Fletcher Second Unit

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    I'm sure there are a ton of women in NE who have Brady jerseys. Hell, Matt Leinart hasn't done crap, and there are plenty of women in Phoenix sporting a pink Leinart jersey. I'm just saying that the vast majority of football fans across the country don't give a rats ass if the football player in t.v. ads is good looking or not. Whether the player in question is seen as funny, or approachable is much more important, than looks.

    Tom Brady may be the best quarterback I've ever seen, but watching his press conferences, he just doesn't seem to have any personality. Whether or not this is due to the influence of the Hoodie, I don't know. What I do know, is that I personally can't see Brady pulling off something like the SNL United Way skit the way Manning did.
     
  14. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Studio Mogul

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    The other reason why Peyton Manning became ubiquitous after his Super Bowl victory is because he seeks out opportunities to do TV advertising, and he's got a good knack for acting in short commercials (and SNL skits) in creating repoire with the audience. Hell, he's gotten his brother Eli (and mom and dad) in the latest Oreo cookie commercial.

    Brady has probably refused many offers for TV ads over the years after all of his Super Bowl successes, and is just more focused about becoming a better team player (even bypassing huge salaried contracts so the Pats have cap money left over to go pay those huge linemen that protect him so very well, especially this season). Brady understands the team concept, and talks the talk, and walks the walk. He'd rather be known for his accomplishments on the field, rather than filming commercials and having to deal with such off-field distractions.

    BTW, Brady didn't find out that he'd knocked up Bridget Moynihan until after they broke up. Either way, I have no doubt he's providing for his child and handling fatherhood duties in a positive manner.

    Also, the NFL is sort of stacked against QBs drafted very highly because those players are going to some suck-ass teams, getting put into service far too quickly, and will get pounded into the dirt/turf for many years (due to crap-ass offensive lines providing no protection), it ain't so bad getting picked later in the draft, and learning the system to the point it become as natural as breathing autonomically. The Colts got lucky in that Manning didn't just rely on natural ability, but also pushes himself hard and prepares as well as you can as a starting QB in the NFL, not every highly drafted QB has that drive and determination, and when they get hurt or bum-rushed repeatedly, they become less of the player they could have become. I'm sure the Colts are happy they didn't pick Ryan Leaf over Peyton all those years ago.
     
  15. Chris

    Chris Lead Actor

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    How many women does Brady intend to tap out of this pool? (sorry! Couldn't resist!)

    And in regard to the "skank" bit, I don't think that was a blanket at all; nor was the midwest soccer mom bit; I think it was showing that everyone plays to stereotype, and it's hard to judge by that.

    Brady may be one of the best quarterbacks I've seen play in a team; but that doesn't make him the greatest QB "of all time". I wouldn't put Manning in that camp either. I watched Elway and Montana play (and in both cases, a few times live) and there was something pretty electric about that. Part of what made them "great" wasn't that they won (although that helped) but it was the fact that in some cases they took teams that without them, and an "average" QB would outright suck.

    The thing about Brady, which is in no way his fault, is that he is surrounded with a team that is significantly better at all most all areas then other teams around him. And that's not his fault. And the NFL has tried to work hard to prevent that with salary caps, etc.

    But the reality is, New England has drafted better, done free agency better, negotiated deals better, then almost all teams in the NFL. Really, only Indianapolis and Dallas can say that they've had fortunes even comparable in the draft and with free agency.

    I mean, compare the draft choices and free agency releases and signings to most other teams in the league. They let players go at the right time, they bring in free agents below value and they draft at the end of the draft and pay less for rookies then anyone.

    None of that is NE's fault, or Brady's fault. Who can blame him for simply having a front office that's better then anyone else?

    By the same token, it's hard to deny that having better talent then others helps.

    Brady also has a strange benefit.. he's in a league that is surprisingly low on real talent at the QB position. There are a ton of real stiffs out there starting who should not be playing. This year, one of the stats handed out on NFL radio was that more players started at QB this year then ever before, because so many teams kept rotating. And there are lots of these players who will wash.

    It's because too many rookie sensation QBs turned into.. nothing. That's why Brett Favre still easily has his job, because while he's older, and still prone to issues, you'd have to say he's still easily amongst the elite QBs because so many QBs have floated through the league in the last few years who just never develop.

    I think it will be fun to watch the Pack and NE in the super bowl (and that's my pick).. I don't see NE losing to the Pack, but stranger things have happened.
     
  16. Kirk Gunn

    Kirk Gunn Screenwriter

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    Interesting comments on the advertising opportunities.... how much control does the NFL have over the player's advertising ? I was under the impression that player's (i.e. - their agents), could negotiate with whomever/whenever. As long as no NFL trademarks were mentioned/displayed it was open to those with "talent" as discerned by ad agencies.
     
  17. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Studio Mogul

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    How many games do NE or Indy win with their backup QBs (even with all the talent on either team)? In a regular season, I'm not sure if they don't go 0-for 32 (unless they play one another in 1 game). It's not just talent, but the commitment to teamwork, and other leadership intangibles that you don't get with backups. Their teammates simply believe that both Manning and Brady will get it done when the game is on the line, and that elevates their play as well. That doesn't happen in the long run with the backups.
     
  18. Chuck Mayer

    Chuck Mayer Lead Actor

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    If you put a gun to my head and asked me to name the one QB I'd anchor any team around...it wouldn't be Montana or Brady, Bradshaw or Young. It'd be John Elway, who took several terrible teams to the SB with no talent at WR, RB, and a mediocre defense. No QB was ever more capable of making a play almost on his own.

    And while I agree you judge a QB on his wins, the fact is a decent QB and a great defense is always worth more than a great QB and a decent defense. I'm not applying that to Brady. I think he is a great QB. But he did have the benefit of a top tier defense for all of his titles (and he also produced plays as necessary - he was [and is] an integral part of the dynasty). The NE D has been underrated all of these years, not Brady [​IMG]

    And I would argue that Brady is a Top Ten all-time QB. He is clutch in the same way Montana was, and that's truly special. He's just not my choice for advertising.
     
  19. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Studio Mogul

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    And yet, even John Elway was a Terrell Davis away from sitting next to Dan Marino as the 2 best QBs never to win a Super Bowl. Funny how that works. Plus you have to wonder about playing in the rarified air of Mile High stadium vs. a more conventional playing level in terms of elevation, and how that affected teams not as acclimated to those conditions.

    I do think "great" QBs are the ones that lead and direct winning drives when it's crunch time, not the ones that manage the game and don't do anything to lose the game for their teams.
     
  20. Chris

    Chris Lead Actor

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    Wow. So you're saying Trent Dilfer, SB winning QB, isn't a great HOF worthy QB? [​IMG]

    Totally buy your argument, and your thought on greatest QB, FYI.
     

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