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2004 Off-Season NBA Trades and Draft

Discussion in 'After Hours Lounge (Off Topic)' started by Lew Crippen, Jun 21, 2004.

  1. BrandonM

    BrandonM Stunt Coordinator

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    Yeah Casey, Kobe is the anti-christ. I'm sure Shaq's trade had nothing to do with him cursing at Dr. Buss during a preseason game in an attempt to get a huge contract extension. It also probably had nothing to do with the fact that they offered Shaq a sizable extension, which he declined. Or even that Shaq demanded the trade and refused to back off. Yeah, he used Kupchak's comments to become outraged and demand a trade, but the writing was on the wall before that occurred. If Kobe somehow orchestrated all of these feelings and actions, he should have a temple built in his honor.

    Yes, Kobe wants to be the primary option and it was time. Shaq is entering the decline of his career and you know he will never accept a role other than being the center of attention. Do you really want Shaq as the focus of the offense in a few years when he's only playing 50 games a year and his numbers are as bad as ever? Shaq is not the kind of player who will pass the torch when it's necessary.

    Sure, the team could have been major contenders for the next couple years, but Shaq declining and eating up all their cap space would crush the Lakers. If they tried to trade him at that point, he would be nearly worthless. The Lakers have made a pre-emptive strike and now have a talented, young nucleus to build around. When they get a solid big man, this team will be very competitive for years to come.
     
  2. Jan H

    Jan H Cinematographer

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    I agree with Brandon, the last thing that Laker fans want is to see what happened to the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons and Bulls in the '90's happen to this team. At least if Kobe re-signs, we're not relegated to the dregs of the league. Hopefully they play well together, and soon, we'll be competing for a title again.
     
  3. Casey Trowbridg

    Casey Trowbridg Lead Actor

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    Brandon and Jan, you’ll both have to refresh my memory on which one of my posts I anointed Shaquille O’Neal a saint, or perfect or blameless in this situation.
    I’ll admit that I favor Shaq to Kobe for a number of reasons. I’ll also admit that one of those reasons is because I’d rather deal with the Devil I know than the one I don’t. At least when Shaq acts like a child, its out in open where everyone can see it. I won’t and can’t dispute any of those things that you mentioned that Shaq did, and the reason is because its public knowledge.
    Personally, I wouldn’t placate either one of those 2. I wouldn’t make a bad trade for Shaq just to cave to Shaq’s demand for a trade, and I wouldn’t make a bad trade just to make a guy happy who’s not guaranteed to be on my team next year anyway.
    If people want to defend Kobe, that’s all fine and good. But, I stand by my point that if Kobe wasn’t going to want to share the ball with Shaq, why on earth would he want to share the ball with a player that isn’t nearly as good as Shaq in Lamar Odom? Plus, look at Jan’s post about why this might end up being a good trade for the Lakers, and you’ll see the word “if” a lot of times, and that’s a few too many “if”s for me to want to make that trade or for me to be happy with it.
    I suspect that Shaq is pretty close to the same guy in front of and behind the cameras. That guy might be a head ache, but at least with him I know what problems are coming my way anyway. Kobe behind the scenes and Kobe in front of the cameras strike me as being 2 different people which is why Kobe’s tantrums especially in Sacramento came as a complete surprise to a majority of people but were almost expected by others. Again, neither guy would be high on my list of man of the year candidates but I’ll stick with the devil I know over the one I don’t.
    Here’s what I would’ve done though if this were my team. Shaq can make all the trade demands he wants, but if I can’t get equal value back, I’m not making any deal for him no matter how much he complains. So if that means I lose him at the end of next season and get nothing in return at that point I’ll take the risk, because he’ll be 33 years old and if not on an obvious down slope than pretty close to it.
    If the fact that I don’t trade Shaq means Kobe goes to the Clippers than I say have fun. See, I actually buy the argument that right now the Clippers have more talent than the Lakers, but that just means more people for Kobe to not want to share the ball with. Hell, they can rename them the Anaheim fighting Bryant’s for all I care.
    So, I’ve got Shaq for 1 year and maybe Kobe goes across town. I probably won’t win a title with Shaq next season but hey I didn’t win one with he and Kobe this past season either. I won’t be a lottery team either though, and then he can go where ever he wants following the season. So, I don’t have Kobe, and I don’t have Shaq. But, you know what I have at this point? I’ve got lots of cap space after a season wherein I probably still make the playoffs. I know that lots of cap space hasn’t helped Chicago, Atlanta, or Denver and other teams like that in the past but none of those teams are the Los Angeles Lakers. I may not be able to replace the star power of Kobe and Shaq, but as the Pistons showed, its not the stars that win the titles in today’s NBA it’s the teams. All that is a worst case scenario assuming that Kobe would actually leave, and I still think I end up pretty good in the end.
    Even if my scenario is overly optimistic of what would actually happen, it sounds a lot better to me than trading Shaq for less than he’s worth for players that have more “ifs” attached to them than Shaq has pounds on his body…and oh by the way all that still not being enough to keep Kobe in town which is still a possibility, he could go to the Clippers even if the Shaq trade goes down. So then I’ve got no Kobe, no Shaq, and because of the Odom, Butler and Grant contracts I don’t have any cap flexibility for a few years either, because oh by the way I’d still have to sign someone to fill Kobe’s spot for this year.
    So please don’t assume that just because I take Shaq’s side over Kobe’s that I think Shaq is perfect or that I’m not really sick of either one of them. Its just that some people will go above and beyond to defend Kobe, and I’m going to try and balance that out even if it means taking a softer stance on Shaq than I actually believe, because that’s what a good debater does.
     
  4. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Studio Mogul

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  5. Shane Martin

    Shane Martin Producer

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    I don't think there is such thing as equal value for Shaq. While alot of folks would make a Yao Ming for Shaq straight trade, it still isn't very fair to Lakers. No matter what they tried, I don't think there is such a thing as a fair deal for the Lakers here. The Lakers were pretty much put into a bind and now they are being toyed with like a yo yo by Kobe. If he jumps to another team(likely but unsure), then that will be a sight to see.
     
  6. Jan H

    Jan H Cinematographer

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    You make great points, Casey, but the bottom line is this: the Lakers made the best deal possible, under the circumstances. They had to trade Shaq in order to keep Kobe in play. Look, I don't like Kobe as a person, or should I say 'persona.' He's arrogant, aloof and selfish. He's also the best player in the league at the age of 25. The situation was untenable, the dysfunction was evident, ever-present and all-consuming, so the brain trust had to make a choice. So they shipped Shaq east, got a 24 year old player with as much versatility as anyone in the game, an even younger, athletic small forward, a gutsy big man who can play center, and a 1st round pick. That is the best package I heard offered from anyone. I'm sorry to see Shaq go, but he is simply not worth the money he was asking for. When he retires in 3 years, everyone will think Kupchak was a genius for making this deal.
     
  7. Casey Trowbridg

    Casey Trowbridg Lead Actor

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    I agree with a lot of This

    I don't know that Kobe is the best player in the league...look, if keeping Kobe is what the Lakers have to do or what they want to do then I don't have a problem going in that direction

    accept

    that even with Shaq now gone, there is no guarantee that Kobe is coming back. He could sign with the Clippers tomorrow.

    I don't blame them for wanting Kobe even though I think the big man is more important...as we all know unless he goes to jail, Kobe will be around a lot longer than Shaq and is just entering the prime of his career.

    That's fine and great, but what do you do if he goes somewhere else and now you've got neither guy and 0 cap space because of the contracts you took from Miami.

    If I *had* to trade Shaq, if I had to do it, I'd say to Kobe...listen if you want him gone, the trade goes down as soon as the ink on your contract is dry, but until you actually sign on the line we're keeping him. We've got a trade in place, but we're not losing you both. If he doesn't agree and signs with the Clippers ok because I've still got Shaq. I guess if I can't have Kobe and Shaq together, I'd rather have Shaq than nothing at all.

    As for Odom he's great if he gets the ball, but as I said before if Kobe didn't want to get the ball to Shaq, why on earth would he all of a sudden decide to get it to Odom? I'm actually a fan of Odom's game...not so much of him, but of his game, and he's the one guy of the 3 that I'm glad to have, but until Kobe decides to get him the ball, he doesn't do them much good.

    If Kobe has a change of heart (read grows up) and decides that getting Odom involved is a good idea, then wonderful, and I'll be happy to admit that I was wrong again...just like I was wrong about the Pistons.

    I'd love to see a Shaq vs. Kobe final, that would be awesome, but with the gutting of the Heat to make the trade, and the fact that the Lakers even with this trade still have 0 depth and no point guard...its not going to happen.
     
  8. Jan H

    Jan H Cinematographer

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    Yeah, I read that earlier today, it's a good read. It's too early to tell whether I agree with him or not. Shaq could win the MVP next year, or he could miss 40 games with bone spurs. Who the hell knows? Hindsight is 20/20.

    I pity Kobe if he doesn't sign with the Lakers, because he'd have to spend the next 6 years in a city that will view him as the ultimate Benedict Arnold. This is decidedly a Laker town. L.A. is not like New York or Chicago, where huge segments of the populations are rabid Cubs or ChiSox fans, or Jets or Giants fans, or Mets or Yankees fans. He will get absolutely crucified out here.
     
  9. Timothy Alexander

    Timothy Alexander Second Unit

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    And honestly, what self-respecting basketball fan would want to cheer for the Clippers? [​IMG]
     
  10. Julio H

    Julio H Agent

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    Well, for one thing, Wade doesn't have the enormous ego that Kobe has and won't hinder everyone else's game by being a selfish player. And Miami also has a deadly perimeter shooter in Eddie Jones, something the Lakers didn't have. The Pistons also took advantage of L.A.'s injury problems and they did get the majority of the calls. That said, I don't think the Heat will come out on top next year. Indiana and San Antonio have to be the favorites. Stephen Jackson gives Indiana a legitimate 2nd scoring option, and Brent Barry gives the Spurs a huge boost with his outside shot and playmaking abilities.
     
  11. Brandon_T

    Brandon_T Screenwriter

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    I won't even comment on Julio's post about the Lakers-Pistons series...


    All I want to know is are you Laker fans nervous awaiting Kobe's decision today?

    Brandon
     
  12. Jan H

    Jan H Cinematographer

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    Well, yes and no, to be honest, Brandon. Obviously, with Kobe, we'll still be a good team, but we'll have to deal with his moods,his immaturity and his ball-hogging. Frankly, a part of me would like to see him leave. Outside of Malone and Fisher, last year's team was very difficult to like. I can see why so many Laker haters were so vocal in their dislike. They would take weeks at a time off from playing hard, well, or together. Without him, we'll be in the lottery for the foreseeable future, but at least we wouldn't have to deal with Kobe's monstrous ego.
     
  13. Julio H

    Julio H Agent

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    -Mark Cuban. Bonehead or not, it is a fair statement.

    Doesn't mean L.A. would've won one way or the other, but it's something to think about.
     
  14. Casey Trowbridg

    Casey Trowbridg Lead Actor

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    Am I nervous about Kobe's decision today? No not really since I didn't even know the decision was supposed to come down today.

    Kobe can do what he wants, if he goes to the Clippers I won't be pissed at him for leaving, that was his right to do so.

    I'll be very pissed at management trading the other superstar without some kind of commitment from Kobe, sacraficing any chance we have at cap flexibility for the next few years and probably leaving us worse off than we would've been if we had a Shaq but no Kobe.

    You know this is kind of sad for me because I used to have a different opinion of Kobe. Part of me hopes that the way he has acted lately is due to his rape trial and the stress of dealing with that problem, but a larger part of me thinks that maybe this stuff has been going on for years and just kept out of the public's eye. Kobe and Shaq did feud before afterall, but even at its peak a few seasons ago, Kobe never did anything like the Sacramento game.

    If he leaves then Laker management has pissed me off, even more.
    If he stays, well whether or not I like the guy he's got the most talent in the game, but I don't call him the best player in the game because one talent that he hasn't exhibited yet is the ability to make his teammates better. I'll take his talent because realistically all things being equal how many teams could say that they'd take a pass on Kobe Bryant?
     
  15. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    I find the league has started honoring "defensive specialists" much in the same way they do offensive superstars.

    Offensive superstars are less likely to have traveling called (but then again, when DO they call traveling?). They are more likely to get continuation. And they are more likely to draw fouls when going to the basket.

    Defensive specialists don't have the ticky-tack hand-checks called. If they get the ball on a block they are less likely to have body contact underneath called. They can body up a player more before a foul is called.

    As a Laker fan, I've hated watching them play Sacto and Doug Christie "defensive specialist"--geez the guy one time had his hand UP KOBE'S SHIRT, it was caught there, like two teenagers on a date and he was trying to feel Kobe up. Right in front of the ref. No call.

    That's just the way it is. And when offensive superstars and defensive specialists meet, just like the Lakers and Pistons did in the finals, the refs are going to have a tough time calling that game. If they call it for the offensive team, then the entire Piston team would have fouled out. But they've allowed the Pistons to play that kind of physical defense all year so is it fair to punish them at the end?

    At the end of the day, it's about the fact that stars on both sides of the ball demand respect, and don't want to be ref'd like a rookie, who are probably the closest players who are officiated "correctly". Well you can't have your cake and eat it, too. So if the vets and stars get some breaks from the refs, it eventually will bite you in the ass, no matter which team you root for.

    The only other alternative is to call the game fairly for everyone, and I don't think that's ever happened.
     
  16. Casey Trowbridg

    Casey Trowbridg Lead Actor

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    In other NBA news that has 0 to do with the Lakers, Mark Stein is reporting that the Nets will trade K-Mart to Denver for 3 future first round picks.

    This makes Denver a real good team at least until the playoffs start and K-Mart disappears.

    Speaking of first round picks that's an aspect of the Laker trade I didn't mention, the pick we're going to get from the Heat. See, this would be a better thing if the draft wasn't such a crapshoot now anyway, with kids taken more on potential than production. It will probably be a late first round pick since well, have you see the division Miami is playing in? Whatever it ends up being isn't going to result in a player that could help the team right away anyway.
     
  17. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    Yeah the problem with the first round pick from the Heat is that you immediately made them a contender w/ Shaq. So that means that pick will be at best the 15th pick, and more likely in the twenties.

    If they got a top-5 pick, that would be one thing. But you generally don't find future stars that low in the draft.
     
  18. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

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    Actually Carlo many journalists point out that lots of stars sneak in lower in the first round, sometimes even the 2nd, just as many top 5 picks become busts. However, I will totally agree with you in principle that this first round pick has only iffy value vs known quantities.


    NETS TRADE
    Seems like an odd move, just taking picks. Hard for me to understand what NJ is working on at this point. Seems like you would want Kidd to have help now, unless of course Kidd is not long for NJ either.

    I guess NJ didn't want to pay the big 3 all that money and decided to get something for KMart. Having just seen Indy forced to "trade" Miller for Pollard I can understand getting something rather than nothing if you can't afford a guy, but to me Martin was the BEST investment of the 3 stars (Kidd being older, Jeff being easier to replace).


    PACERS
    The deal is apparently signed, Harrington is in Atlanta doing his physical as I write this.

    Seeing Jackson's career path makes me comfortable with him, as did his interview in which he strongly stated that he has no problems playing BEHIND Reggie. Not learning from him or playing his part, but clearly understanding that he expected his role to be limited in comparison to Reggie's. I don't think that lasts to be honest (his time will go up and Reg might end up coming off the bench), but at least he's got an attitude to deal with the situation (ie, if he's playing better but not starting).

    That is already an upgrade over where Harrington was at. I like Al but I don't think he really showed anything to warrent a start on this roster. Cripes, Detlef settled for 2 straight 6th Man WINS and didn't demand to start.


    SHAQ
    I've never been a big Shaq fan or anything, but his ESPN interview was very impressive. He was thoughtful in his responses, his points were clear and lucid, and he seemed like a very focused guy. Making cute one-shot jokes is one thing, but his attitude in that interview was something far more impressive.

    Sure makes it seem like Kobe is the big problem after all.



    BIG MONEY SIGNINGS
    Hard to judge all of them, but the locals are chuckling over Brian Cardinal. As a Purdue guy myself, I obviously like him. I also pay more attention to him and Brad Miller and what I see with Cardinal is very similar to Miller's progression. Come out of college with only moderate promise, maybe not even making a team, slowly earn your way up.

    Brad Miller did it in Charlotte first, before Chicago. He came in and surprised. His numbers weren't superstar but they showed great promise. Just a few seasons later and he is a 2 time AS. Heck, new Pacer Jackson could fit that mold too.

    I think teams invest in guys like Cardinal because they prove that they can play rather than just show athletic talent. It makes it seem like a possible mistake because of what a player is supposed to be, but players like Cardinal are scrappers and earners and a role player like that can really help your team.

    Plus both Miller and Cardinal brought a new dimension that changed their status. The knock on Miller was his lack of effort and emotion. Clearly his struggles to make the NBA changed all of that. Miller now is not the same guy that was at Purdue. Cardinal on the other hand was a worker and scrapper but never had the outside shot he now has. Put a 3pt threat with the scrappy inside play of a defensive/hustle player and you have a pretty valuable team guy.

    Some of these signings are still based on promise, but at least some of them are based on a guy proving that he could raise his game finally. Even if half of them bust I think several of them will pan out as solid 3-6 on the roster guys, and that's the kind of money being spent on them.
     
  19. Haggai

    Haggai Producer

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  20. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    I think most (but certainly not all) LA fans will agree with this.
     

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