2003 MLB World Series thread (1 Viewer)

[David Von Pein]

The instant ... Torre brought in Weaver to pitch I knew the game was over.

I know *that* feeling.
I used to get that sickening feeling when Reds' manager Sparky Anderson would, for some reason only known to himself & The Almighty, bring in lefthander Joe Hoerner out of the bullpen in 1977. :frowning:

Joe, that yr., sparkled with a lovely 12.72 ERA (9 H/3 HR/5.2 IP). Plus 3 HBP and 3 BB. Nice.

Is this Weaver guy THAT bad?

 

[Eric Paddon]

Yes, he is THAT bad. Charley Weaver could pitch a better game than Jeff Weaver even in his present condition (which is 29 years deceased).

 

[Robert Crawford]

It was all about matchups right-handed pitcher against a predominantly right-handed batting lineup which to me at times kind of boxes in a manager to make a bad decision such as the one made last night by Torre. As others have stated, as soon as Weaver came into the game I thought the game was over. The Yankees better get wise to the fact that Weaver will never be an effective pitcher for the Yankees and Yankee fans will remind them of that fact as long as he pitches in a Yankee uniform.

If they still do the pregame player introductions in New York on Saturday, I expect Weaver to get boo out of the stadium. He's done and Torre needs to accept that's just the way it is.





Crawdaddy

 

[Jason Seaver]

I'm not an expert, but as far as I can tell, his defense is much better than his offense, and that's why I think Torre keeps him on.

No, Soriano's defense is about as good as Jeter's (as in, not obviously awful, but not exactly good, either). But, he can cause major violence to any ball in the strike zone; it's tough not to look at him and see Sammy Sosa potential. He's got the same problem as Shea Hillenbrand, though - he absolutely cannot lay off pitches outside the strike zone, and seldom shows any willingness to learn about it.

 

[Michael Hughes]

No, Soriano's defense is about as good as Jeter's (as in, not obviously awful, but not exactly good, either).

I have to respectfully disagree. Soriano's defense is below average at best. He is in there because he's got an explosive bat and is an above average hitter. Arguably one of the top 10 offensive players in baseball. That being said he is in a major slump and is attempting to wildly swing his way out of it. Jeter on the other hand is a fine defensive shortstop, who may not be in the upper tier of the top 5 defensively, but he is above average.

Me think Torre sticks with Soriano at the top becuase his options are truly limited, the whole Yankee lineup sans Jeter, Bernie and Hideki are struggling with the bat. He could move Jeter to #1 like has has in the past. I could see him trying something like Jeter, Hideki, Bernie, Giambi, Soriano, Posada, Garcia, Boone, Pitcher. That could be a decent shakeup.

This series is going seven and we have not seen Clemens last appearance, this series is beginning to get some juice.

 

[LewB]

why has Torre stayed with Soriano,

Because Sorriano has been a 30-30 many for the last 2 years, last year he was 1 HR away from 40-40 (HRs-stolen bases). Add the fact the Torre is very loyal to the players that he feels got the Yanks to where they are.
He has been a work in progress since he came up. They moved him to 2nd base from shortstop. Willie Randolph has taken him under his wing and made him a fair glove man. When he first came up he never saw a pitch he didn't like. I don't think he drew his first walk until July. looks like the old habits are back. He looks clueless up there, like he has no plan as to what he wants to do.
As for Weaver, the less said the better.

 

[Eric Paddon]

To me, what happened last night is the finest argument *against* so-called "National League baseball" and the lack of a DH in that a manager has to be forced to bring in the worst pitcher on the roster instead of staying with the best he has to offer. I think games should be won or lost because a manager has been able to put the best he has on the field and not because of some arcane rule that the National League is the only organization in the world to stubbornly follow. Seeing the Yankees beat in 2001 with Rivera on the mound is one thing because in that situation the best pitcher they had was out there, but for any scenario to happen that has a rotten pitcher like Weaver in there is just a joke IMO.

 

[Lew Crippen]

To me, what happened last night is the finest argument *against* so-called "National League baseball" and the lack of a DH in that a manager has to be forced to bring in the worst pitcher on the roster instead of staying with the best he has to offer. I think games should be won or lost because a manager has been able to put the best he has on the field and not because of some arcane rule that the National League is the only organization in the world to stubbornly follow. Seeing the Yankees beat in 2001 with Rivera on the mound is one thing because in that situation the best pitcher they had was out there, but for any scenario to happen that has a rotten pitcher like Weaver in there is just a joke IMO.

I have to disagree with this Eric. ‘Arcane’ is hardly a reasonable term to be used for a rule that is in use by 50% of the teams playing baseball at the highest level.

No one forced Torre to make the move. He could have chosen to stay with his pitcher. Plus he did not have to go with Weaver—that too was his choice.

His choice here is no different than choosing to start a lineup with a defensively weak right side of the infield in order to get more offensive potential.

And don’t forget that for all the fact that Weaver gave up the game-winner, the Yankees had a lead-off double and could not get even one run out of that. For me that failure was the game. You don’t get too many scoring opportunities in situations like this and to not cash in on them when they do occur, usually leads to a loss.

 

[Marvin]

I think games should be won or lost because a manager has been able to put the best he has on the field ...

At the end of the game, the Yankees also had Flaherty in the game due to a pinch-running decision. So you could argue that Torre was forced to bring in the worst catcher on the roster instead of staying with the best he has to offer. Would you be in favor of a designated runner so Posada could have remained in the game?

 

[Marvin]

As for staying with Soriano, as noted above, he doesn't have many other options - just Enrique Wilson. Soriano seems to be another recent Yankee who puts up good stats during the regular season but doesn't do so well in the playoffs with the added pressure and the improved pitching.
(Say what you want about Jeter, but it's probably no coincidence that he can handle the added pressure.)

Of course, I said something like this about Giambi before the last ALCS game and he hit 2 homers off of Martinez so I hope Soriano proves me wrong again.

The series seems to be following a similar pattern to the ALCS: Yanks lose game one at home, Pettitte evens it up in game 2, they beat the other team's ace on the road in game 3 but lose a close game 4. If the pattern continues, they'll go one up tonite with Wells, then lose game 6 with a less effective Pettitte, then beat the other team's ace in game 7 (maybe Clemens will have to come in in relief of Mussina).

You read it here first. (I reserve the right to edit this post if Wells loses.)

 

[Bill Slack]

"
For those expert fans...why has Torre stayed with Soriano, throughout the ALCS & WS, despite Soriano's sub-.170 post-season BA (not to mention a record number of post-season strikeouts)?

...

I'm not an expert, but as far as I can tell, his defense is much better than his offense, and that's why I think Torre keeps him on.
"

Soriano is a pretty bad (defensive) second basemen. He's a good athelete, and can make it look pretty. Same with Jeter; He's gone from an average defensive shortstop to pretty much terrible over the last few years. It's been a pretty steady decline (as it is for most players), but Jeter has dropped up really quickly. I'm sure injuries aren't helping.

That said, they can both hit, which puts them near the top of MLB for their positions.

I've never been a Soriano fan, always insisting that his plate disclipline would catch up to him. The guy can kill the John Burketts of the world, for sure... but against good pitching looks pretty foolish sometimes.

Soriano finished 24th in RC/27 outs, just behind Jeter and Nomar. But Trot Nixon, Jorge Posada, Bill Muehller and Corey Koskie are all well ahead of him. Soriano's lack of walks and high strike out total make him create a ton of outs. And the idea of him hitting lead off is mind boggling too (makes as much sense as hitting Todd Walker 2nd throughout the season!)

Uhh... Go Marlins? (I'm a big Josh Beckett fan, that's about it!)

 

[Eric Paddon]

"The Marlins had to play by the same rules. It was Torre's decision not ony to to bring in Weaver but also to put him on the post season roster"

I won't deny that. The ultimate fault lies in having him on the roster to salve his crybaby ego and keep him up for next year. It still doesn't change my mind about the DH though. The pinch running argument is not the same because both leagues and all of baseball face that kind of decision even with the DH. Having it affect who you want to pitch is IMO not a good idea, especially when the NL is the only league in the entire world that clings to this antiquated concept.

 

[Steve_Tk]

To me, what happened last night is the finest argument *against* so-called "National League baseball" and the lack of a DH in that a manager has to be forced to bring in the worst pitcher on the roster instead of staying with the best he has to offer. I think games should be won or lost because a manager has been able to put the best he has on the field and not because of some arcane rule that the National League is the only organization in the world to stubbornly follow. Seeing the Yankees beat in 2001 with Rivera on the mound is one thing because in that situation the best pitcher they had was out there, but for any scenario to happen that has a rotten pitcher like Weaver in there is just a joke IMO.

For me that's the argument for the NL. The DH is pathetic. It's a guy that plays on a team who's defense is so miserable that all he is is a glorified hitter.

I like the double switch and I think that you should have to use the whole team sometimes. You have players on the bench, well they have to step up and help win when you go 12 innings. Guess what, Weaver didn't step up. Looper came in with 1 out and bases loaded, he did his job. Torre could have let Contreras bat. Smoltz batted in the LDS, why couldn't contreras? Torre was hoping that his switch would be beneficial and Riveria would be up in the bottom of the inning. Well the yankees bats screwed up and didn't score any runs, the Weaver coming in is the batters fault, not the NL system.

The NL system makes you sometimes use the whole team to defeat the other team, not ONLY your million dollar players.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Are you kidding me?????????? By the way, your boy Nomar isn't exactly a Gold Glove shortstop.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Are you kidding me?????????? By the way, your boy Nomar isn't exactly a Gold Glove shortstop.

Although I would not classify Jeter as terrible, if you analyze them both by basic stats (Putouts, Chances and Assists) or by other arcane statistics (range, zones etc.), Nomar is a better fielder than Jeter in every stat except errors (which we all know is a poor stat to evaluate shortstops). I recently had this argument with a friend of mine who insisted Jeter's stats would be better. I showed him the stats and he was barely speaking to me for a month after he begrudgingly had to admit he was wrong. Being a guy who never likes to admit he is wrong, he did fall back on the old "he has better *intangibles*" argument so he could mentally deal with his error.

If you want to check basic stats, go to MLB.com and divide career chances, putouts and assists by number of games and you get a rough idea of how they compare. Putouts are even (as they should be); assists and chances - Nomar averages far more per season.

Edited to change catches to chances.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I don't subscribe to the Bill James school of stat watching. I go by what I see on the field of play and in my opinion, Derek Jeter is an above average fielding shortstop.




Crawdaddy

 

[Michael Hughes]

if you analyze them both by basic stats

The only stat you need to measure them both by is World Series Rings.

Jeter 4 (with 5 pending)
Nomar 0

Would Nomar have any rings if he was on the Yankees? Maybe Maybe not, but in their recent run the Yanks do not win much without Jeter and Mariano in the pen. Jeter is a stud playoff performer, Nomar skipped town for much of the Divisional Series.

Yanks are nowhere without Jeter and/or Mariano. Jeter may not be the top fielder, hitter, runner, but he is the most clutch and you put them all together and there are few playoff ballplayers like him.

 

[Malcolm R]

And here I thought the Boston-NY cattiness was over for this season. Silly me.

 

[Bill Slack]

No, Nomar's not. Nomar's above average, and just barely that. If he didn't make so many errors, he'd be much better. His actual range is good, but he tosses it around the field, sometimes.

According to defensive win shares, range factor and ultimate zone rating, Jeter finishes last or near it, at this point in his career. All of them agree, Derek Jeter has bad range. Jeter is notorious for positioning himself poorly too; he's like the anti-Ripken.

They also agree Nomar and Tejada are in the middle of the pack. And that Maz is the greatest defensive 2B of all time. That Andruw Jones (so far) and Mays are the best CFs. And that Tino was an awesome 1B, and that Mo Vaugn and Frank Thomas are historically terribe. All of the numbers make sense, to me. I'm no 'Yankees suck' Sox fan. All of the numbers also point to both Soriano and Jeter being very good players.

Win shares and UZR adjust for GB/FB ratio, LHP/RHP etc., the stats line up very well with what you see on the field and support many of the claims that a lot of astute observers have been making for a quite awhile (including that Omar Vizquel is tremoundly over-rated.)

 

[Robert Crawford]

It's never over with..........