2001: A Missing Dialogue Odyssey?

Discussion in 'DVD' started by andySu, Apr 30, 2006.

  1. andySu

    andySu Cinematographer

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    Missing dialogue panning, why did the re-recording mixers, botch this, DVD and what is there excuse for this botched version to sit on my DVD bookshelf.
     
  2. alan halvorson

    alan halvorson Cinematographer

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    What are you talking about? What dialogue? How do you know what's correct? Which version of 2001 are you referring to? If you're dissatisfied, dump it.
     
  3. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.

    The old MGM disc was missing some dialogue, but as far I know, they were restored in the current Warner release.
     
  4. andySu

    andySu Cinematographer

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    The 2001, DVD edition, the one that you and I have!

    Thank heavens I still have the Laserdisc version.

    The re-recording mixers have taken it upon themselves, to reposition it to the centre, quite good deal of it is, well this vesrion is not worthy, the original mix was so nice to listen to. version, now that’s what I call poor decision making.

    The down fall for this is due to the, crummy Dolby Digital formatting we have, and it’s ability to only playback the sound, or the configuration of these channels, as 5.1, left centre right, split-surrounds, and LFE.1.

    In the old days, we get a multiple of choices, with Left, Left centre, Centre, Right centre, Right and monaural surround.

    Dolby formats: 40
    70mm 6-Track (Todd-AO)
    Standard 6-track with magnetic filters, no NR
     
  5. alan halvorson

    alan halvorson Cinematographer

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    What is your source for what's correct? Which region are you referring to? If you prefer an old laserdisc, fine, I've owned them all but I'd take none of them over the most current version of 2001 on dvd.
     
  6. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    How large is your screen, andy?
     
  7. GregK

    GregK Screenwriter

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    The missing occasional directional dialog has nothing to do with limitations of the Dolby Digital format. It is due to the current DVD's audio track being a complete remix. If you want to hear the original mix of 2001 in discrete Dolby Digital 4.0, look for the now out of print MGM DVD. The directional dialog on that version is intact and has better separation (IMHO) than the old Dolby Surround mixdown found on laserdisc.
     
  8. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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  9. GregK

    GregK Screenwriter

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    Yes, the MGM release was missing the one line of dialog.

    I've owned both versions, and while from a purist standpoint I normally prefer and listen to original sound mixes, (and also prefer any directional dialog remain intact) the new remix does offer a -very- nice step up for the score, which obviously plays a major role in this feature. That.. along with the huge improvement in video prompted me to give my MGM 2001 disc to a friend who would enjoy it. But with that being said, it would be nice if a future HD DVD release offers *both* audio mixes. It would allow one to appreciate the strengths of the new 5.1 mix, while still providing the original presentation as was heard when first released.
     
  10. andySu

    andySu Cinematographer

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    It’s like this, and first my SONY monitor which is still working, “SONY KX-27PS1” suits me right down to earth it does.

    So there’s a 4.0 mix, well that would explain it, firstly I need a multi-region DVD player, no problem there and lastly the older version MGM’ “2001:A Space Odyssey.”

    Dolby 4.0 like I said does explain it, seeing it’s got monaural surrounds, and since LFE.1, much less Baby Boom didn’t existing around that time or era, the fronts maybe folded with left centre to left and center, and right centre into centre and right, but still the extra channels would be still there for decoding, with a little black magic and some re-plugging, and two more matching JBL for the left centre and right centre.

    Now as for HD-DVD, and it’s no big a deal than DVD was, so we have more data storage on the disc, great, now lets see if there can provide me with discrete five-screen array and the usual split-surrounds, and LFE.1 to sink a battle ship, lets have some from the past, and blast it will be.

    I can think of multiple ways around, on how to trick myself with the split-surrounds.

    But the prime objective hear is, I’m really feed up with these re-mixes, thank heavens for, “The Abyss” which version do I run, theatrical 1989, I have seen the “Special Edition” 1992, several times, sure it’s great, but I’m a romantic, I like the original, kinder gives me a feeling of nostalgic “70mm six-track Dolby Stereo” I have an ear and a darn good memory for sound I Kidd you not!

    Now talk about missing, dialogue panning, in the directional field, listen out for “Superman the Movie” 1978-2001, there’s a scene where you hear the newspaper been pulled tightly, with that snapping sound! Then there’s the alternative version where you don’t hear it, that’s how good I am at picking sounds, or music out, much less directional dialogue panning.


    GregK'

    Thanks for providing me with the information; I’d take the old 2001, any day of the week, over this lemon I have stuck on the DVD bookshelf.


    “2001:A Space Odyssey” versions that I have:

    Laserdisc cat no# ML102233 NTSC Dolby 2.0
    DVD cat no# D2A/Z1 65000/65539 Region 2 PAL UK Dolby 5.1 with split-surrounds.
     
  11. andySu

    andySu Cinematographer

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    One other reason why I would chose over this, is one I’m sick of super 35 films, I must admit I have a few classics, like “The Abyss” “Terminator 2” “Top Gun” “Star Trek VI” only because of the way they where billed back in the days of 70mm, and top billing like see it and hear it in “70mm six-track Dolby Stereo” well those days have long gone.

    Now all we get is faster editing with visual effects, with just a few frames hear and there, with no meaning, no soul purpose, like wow, I had time to take that in, no it’s like all happen to fast.

    The same is happening with DVD and these dreadful re-mixes, I have stopped buying DVD’s on an all time high now, as I don’t seen any improvement happening hear, and if you what to Kidd yourselves with HD-DVD thinking it’s going to better, your dreaming!!!

    Sure I’ll buy into this new venture into DVD, when it’s available hear in the United Kingdom, soon, but I’m not going to go wild over it, I’ve seen what image differences can be made with DVD over Laserdisc images, and as far as the sound transfers goes for some of the DVD’s that I have now, over 800 films, some stink like yesterdays dirty laundry, and those are the big studios, now going and figure!
     
  12. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    I asked about your screen because "right centre" and "left centre" are most effective on large movie screens. So unless you had a projection setup, it's unlikely that would be able to hear the advantages. You'd probably be able to detect a difference, but wouldn't necessarily be better.

    It's a matter of loudspeaker placement. If your main speakers are 5 metres apart, your screen must be 5 metres wide. Otherwise, the left and right centre speakers won't align with the voices on screen.

    Do you recall which scenes in 2001 have panned dialogue?
     
  13. andySu

    andySu Cinematographer

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    Jeremy

    I have set the five-screen configuration up several years ago when I read an article in “Widescreen Review” called “finding more channels” the approach was so simple, and I tried it out with, “The Sound of Music” which had spectacular results.

    I could easily place the panning moving from left to left centre, and so on, and some sounds in-between the left and right extra channels, thou it was only working on the basics of two mismatched Dolby pro-logic decoders, alignment was tricky, and one of the decoders had automatic balancing, where’s the other decoder didn’t.

    Still I was one stereo amplifier shy at the end of the day, as I had to borrow it from the split-surrounds, and remove some of the surround loudspeakers for placement at the left centre and right centre, still everything worked out as it was supposed to.

    When I get around the time to install two or more JBL control 5’s for the front extras, as well as, a new array for the split-surround configuration, the home cinema audio set-up will become more realized, than it is at the present moment, which is not to bad going, with an “upper centre channel” and an overheard height surround which works via taking the signal form one of the split-surround signals.

    So there’s around 8 channels working, and the LFE.1, but it’s only a pseudo effect, an effect that performs with flying colours, and it’s all down to thinking, of how the stereo signals work with each other and oppose as well.

    On a last note, I have worked in the cinema industry several times, for UCI and Warner Village cinemas UK, as projectionist, so the term five-screen is no stranger to me, thou I have only worked with 35mm, and the Dolby CP-55, 65, and 500, “Victoria V” 35mm projector and an old Phillips, 35mm only projector in the past.

    So when it comes to home cinema sound, the planning out of the sound, is very straight forward, and once I have the basics down on paper, which is sound, as I know it will work, what am I talking about hear is a project, which I wont discus hear at this time, it’s very complicated, and it’s mealy an add on, to complement the existing sound system that I’m using at the moment.
     
  14. GregK

    GregK Screenwriter

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    Andy will be able to give further examples, as the two I remember are from memory, given I no longer own the MGM DVD.

    1) On the spacestation, Dr. Floyd uses the videophone to call his daughter.

    2) On the moon, Dr. Floyd's meeting on the need for secrecy has (had) occasional directional dialog.

    The directional effect was slight, and didn't employ the radical hard left / hard right panning found in the early Fox & Todd-AO mixes. As Andy mentioned, Superman: The Movie used to have a slight directional mix, but that along with a number of original sound effects were dumped in the new remix. Thankfully the DTS & Dolby Digital tracks on Close Encounters of the Third Kind still retains it's directional dialog. I thought for sure that would have been lost. Logan's Run was the last feature I know of that was mixed using aggressive hard left hard right directional dialog panning, which is also retained in the current 5.1 DVD. Many of the original Pixar animated features employ directional dialog as well.
     
  15. JeremyErwin

    JeremyErwin Producer

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    andy,
    I'll take your word for it-- my budget for new speakers and "Dolby 3" processors is quite limited.
    just out of curiosity, though, have you any any experience with dvd-audio/sacd? I have a feeling that you're firmly in the non-phantom center faction.
     
  16. Darren Gross

    Darren Gross Supporting Actor

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    edit
     
  17. andySu

    andySu Cinematographer

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    Greg

    The Scene with Floyd’ does have the use of the dialogue pan, but there were some scenes where the mixers had, completely botched it, unbelievable.


    Other scenes in the film, there are countless scenes, but I’m sure you know which ones, Logan’s Run” now don’t quote me on this, I do believe the film was released in 70mm with the 5 screen channel array, and the signal monaural surround, I have heard a version of “Logan’s Run” many years ago on channel 4 hear in the UK, and distinctively remember the panned dialogue moving from left to right centre and in-between as well.

    An old version of Superman The Movie did have dialogue panning, in it, I have an old VHS tape in Scope 2.35:1, and Dolby Stereo, the mix is great on that, and to tell you the truth, I haven’t played that tape in quite some time now, sale it no way!

    I would however like to get my paws on the Laserdisc version, oh yes!

    So you see, there is a huge difference, in what where buying, and what where getting, and not getting with the mix that is, I also happen to have “Close Encounters of the Third Kind” as well, that was one of two films in 1977 which had “Baby Boom” I trust the mix as been not played with too much, and those directional dialogue pans are a real treat.
     

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