20-25 Hz

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by William_Gravem, Sep 10, 2004.

  1. William_Gravem

    William_Gravem Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm looking to spend in the $500-$700 range for a down-firing box sub. I'm interested in the HSU VFT-3 MK 2, the STF-3, or the Outlaw LFM-1 to go along w/ axioms speakers.

    It looks like the main difference is an extra $100.00 for frequencies between 20 and 25 Hz (if I'm overgeneralizing, please let me know, I'm still a newbie). Is that the only difference? How important is it for a sub to go down to the low 20's?

    Does it make a huge difference when watching depth charges, pod-races, and Lord of the Rings battles? Does it make Jazz, symphonies, or heavy metal music better?

    I don't know a lot about this, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Kernel X

    Kernel X Extra

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    Most movies are recorded in the 25Hz - 62Hz frequency for effects, but there are some that go down to 20Hz. There are subs that claim that they go down to 20Hz but they will not play loudly at that frequency, so explosions and depth charges won't play as loud and as accurate as they should. The trick is to try to find a sub that will play smoothly through all low frequencies. The Outlaw sub is a very good sub for the price and I would recommend it over the others. With music, you don't have to go that low. The lowest note on a bass guitar is 41Hz. Best of luck to ya!
     
  3. PaulDA

    PaulDA Cinematographer

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    Of course, synth bass, synths in general and pipe organs can reach subsonic frequencies of 12hz. Just wanted to point it out. I'm quite satisfied with my sub (F3 rolloff of 26hz) as it goes deeply and cleanly enough for me (corner placement can increase extension and output significantly according to Tom Nousaine--an authority on subwoofers).

    William, any of those choices should do well. The Outlaw design team was assisted by Dr. Hsu of Hsu sub fame.
     
  4. William_Gravem

    William_Gravem Stunt Coordinator

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    Thank you both for all your help.

    Yeah, I saw that the Outlaw team worked w/ the famous Dr. Hsu. Honestly, when I first saw that, I thought that perhaps I should just get an HSU sub instead of an Outlaw.

    by the way Paul, where does your signature quote come from?
     
  5. PaulDA

    PaulDA Cinematographer

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    It's from a series of "Murphy's Laws" posters my high school history teacher had on his classroom wall, back in 1981. I remember a few others but this one was the most memorable.

    A couple of others:

    A committee is a group of people trying to do the work of one person.
    To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer.

    There were three posters, as I recall. Murphy's Laws of Life, of Technology and Government (not sure about the last one).

    BTW, Nousaine reviewed the Outlaw (along with a bunch of other subs) in the latest Sound and Vision magazine. He also included setup tips for the real world. The review is on their website. I don't know about the setup tips, though.
     
  6. William_Gravem

    William_Gravem Stunt Coordinator

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    pro is to con as progress is to congress...

    Murphy's law is recursive, washing your car to make it rain doesn't work...

    And I'm recalling one about the powerful law of frisbee -which sucks flying disks under cars and on rooftops.

    (it was a screen-saver I had in the early-mid 90's.... I knew I had seen that before!)
     
  7. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    I think legitimate extension to 20 Hz (or even deeper) is important for HT applications. There is quite a bit of infrasonic content in DVDs these days. When properly reproduced, it adds a thrilling dimension to the movie experience.
     
  8. CurtisSC

    CurtisSC Screenwriter

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    While I agree with Edward that legitimate extension below 20hz is great with movies that have that content, in the thousands of movies released on DVD during a year, there are few that have such content. The genre that typically has that content are thrillers and action movies.

    The depth charges in U-571, LOTR battles, and Star Wars pod races, I believe are all above 25hz...even 30hz if I recall correctly.

    That said, I would get all the sub I could in my price range that sounds good to me, and meets my size/aesthetics requirements.
     
  9. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Don't make me break out all the waterfall hotlinks, Curtis.... [​IMG] There's plenty of infrasonic content in many new DVD releases, including the ones you listed above.

    I think a clean/loud 25 Hz extension is the minimum required to convey most of the weight and body in the popular bassy scenes on DVDs. If the sub starts trailing off quickly below 25 Hz in terms of either extension OR distortion limited output, it can be quite noticeable in certain scenes.

    My vote for the models you listed would be the VTF-3 for its ability to get down into the high teens with some authority.
     
  10. GregBe

    GregBe Second Unit

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    As far as music, here is a chart that shows the frequency musical instruments play in.
    Scroll down to the bottom for the chart.

    Musical Instrument Frequency Chart

    I found this very helpful.
     
  11. CurtisSC

    CurtisSC Screenwriter

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    OK...I won't argue. [​IMG] But I still say that in the great scheme of DVD releases, the percentage containing stuff below 25hz is small.
     
  12. William_Gravem

    William_Gravem Stunt Coordinator

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    Edward,

    I just read your Hsu Research STF-3 vs. SVS PB1-ISD link. Impressive job on both the test and the explanation. Any chance you'll do review of the Outlaw anytime soon?

    The SVS concerns me because of the integrated base plate. I have cats and worry that while I'm at work they'd knock a toy under the sub, and puncture the driver reaching around for it (or try to fit in there, they seem to like trying to get into small spaces) and the spiked feet subs seem like they would sink lower into the carpet, so I'd have less to worry about.
     
  13. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    >>>There's plenty of infrasonic content in many new DVD releases
     
  14. Steve Lucas

    Steve Lucas Stunt Coordinator

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    I think this quote is originally from Mark Twain
     
  15. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Nousaine just reviewed the Outlaw over at S&V. It is essentially an STF-3 clone, and his instrumented data certainly supports this.

    The space between the PB1-ISD baseplate and the enclosure is too small for a cat to squeeze into. It's really only wide enough to allow the woofer to reach full excursion (with some extra margin to avoid creating a back-pressure pocket in the cone). It does provide a consistent firing surface for the woofer.

    On really thick carpet, the spiked feet on the Hsu design can sink in far enough to create woofer clearance issues. In this case, Hsu Research recommends cupped rubber feet to maintain the required spacing. Or you can use a stiffer rubberized welcome mat under the sub (see my STF-2 review for a picture of this). Either method is approved by Hsu Research.

    I can't help you with the cats, but I will tell you that space under the woofer is almost the same for either model (unless the Hsu sinks into carpeting as discussed above). I suppose in this respect, you would face the same concern with either model.
     
  16. Robb Roy

    Robb Roy Supporting Actor

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    Not Twain -- Robert Heinlein in Time Enough for Love.

    -Robb
     
  17. CurtisSC

    CurtisSC Screenwriter

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    I'm with Edward...I don't think the cat could get under there, and the likelihood of a paw getting in there and damaging the woofer is very small....ontop of that, the drivers are not that fragile.
     
  18. Robb Roy

    Robb Roy Supporting Actor

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    Since it would now be a shame to not quote Twain (he is, after all, a better author than Heinlein):



    Play some seriously loud and deep bass with the cat in front of the sub, and it will leave the sub alone after that.

    -Robb
     
  19. William_Gravem

    William_Gravem Stunt Coordinator

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    OK, so it sounds like I'd likely hit the same cat-problems regardless of which down-firing sub I picked.

    Say, how bad do you think it would distort the bass if I wrapped something around the feet, like an elastic cloth of some sort?

    I may just be a little neurotic about this, but my father's front firing sub became essentially a scratching post.

    A few weeks back I posted a cats and subs thread that discussed this.
     
  20. Paul.X

    Paul.X Auditioning

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    William,

    I'm so glad you brought up the issue of cats in general. I am about to buy new speakers with fabric grills and I have been fretting about how to keep teh cats away from the speakers (I am not buying them so the cats can use them for scratchng posts).

    I've never had a home theater to speak of before so I do not know how to deal with this issue. I really wanted metal grills but unfortunately what I am buying does not come with them...

    Any suggestions please?
     

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