2 vs 4 Atmos Speakers (1 Viewer)

[Colin]

Hey hardware folks!

Those of you who have Atmos height speakers, do you have an opinion on 2 vs 4? Is it a game changer, or just a little more fun?

I'm trying to figure out if I want to bend over backward with my HT design to get 4 Atmos. It will mean more complicated restraints and a more expensive receiver to get 4 speakers. If 2 gets the job done, it'll be way easier. But if 4 makes a world of difference, then I'll consider the extra cost and headache.

 

[JohnRice]

It depends on the layout of the room. Just like with 7.1 vs. 5.1, there needs to be a fair amount of space behind the viewing position to take advantage of it.

 

[John Dirk]

You're being a little cryptic [complicated restraints] so I don't know how much actual work/sacrifice would be involved.

I'm a fan of doing what you can with what you have room-wise, so if you have adequate space and environment, I'd absolutely recommend 4. That said, I'm not going to tell you it's a "game changer" because there are simply too many variables. You know, the weakest link theory... If you have a quality receiver/processor decoding a properly rendered Atmos track which is then output through a good set of speakers into a somewhat acoustically friendly space, the results can be stunning. If any of these links are inadequate then the results will suffer to some degree.

Also keep in mind, a really good Atmos mix will sound awesome, even with no height speakers. Height channels are an important part of Atmos but not the only one.

 

[Colin]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm finally turning a room in our "new" house into a dedicated HT room. Here's a layout of what I've got to work with (via the Audio Advice layout tool... also interested in what you guys think of this tool):

110" screen, 5.2.X surround sound.

I know most people would recommend putting the screen on the narrow wall, but we watch a lot of movies as a family, usually piling onto a big couch, so we're going horizontal. It is what it is for how we roll.

The constraint is the placement of the seating is that it'll be tough to not have the rear height speakers too far back. So the simple solution would be stick with 2 Atmos speakers vs 4. But I can make 4 work if it's gonna blow our minds. ;-)

 

[JohnRice]

I don’t think they’re too far back. I can’t say they will blow your minds, but I’d do it rather than wonder if you should have.

 

[John Dirk]

I don’t think they’re too far back. I can’t say they will blow your minds, but I’d do it rather than wonder if you should have.

What he said.

 

[JohnRice]

Give yourself some flexibility with subwoofer placement. Putting them in the front corners will probably be better than how they’re shown in the image.

 

[DaveF]

Four Atmos speakers. You/ve got the space and you’re starting from scratch. The incremental cost is minimal relative to the total room budget.

I also suggest 120” screen. We’re at the point where it’s getting iffy between even a 120” projector and a 97” LCD. Going below 120” opens up the consideration more strongly with a giant direct view. Doubly so since you’re not using an AT screen and plan to have speakers below / beside the screen.

Finally, with that huge front wall, you can consider getting a 2.4:1 widescreen screen and using CIH by lens memory zoom to make bigger movies bigger without compromising all the 16:9 streaming / TV / sports shows.

 

[Colin]

Give yourself some flexibility with subwoofer placement. Putting them in the front corners will probably be better than how they’re shown in the image.

Yeah, the AudioAdvice tool doesn't let you fine-tune where the speakers are unfortunately. I'll be sure to put the subs wide.

 

[Colin]

Four Atmos speakers. You/ve got the space and you’re starting from scratch. The incremental cost is minimal relative to the total room budget.

I also suggest 120” screen. We’re at the point where it’s getting iffy between even a 120” projector and a 97” LCD. Going below 120” opens up the consideration more strongly with a giant direct view. Doubly so since you’re not using an AT screen and plan to have speakers below / beside the screen.

Finally, with that huge front wall, you can consider getting a 2.4:1 widescreen screen and using CIH by lens memory zoom to make bigger movies bigger without compromising all the 16:9 streaming / TV / sports shows.

Thanks @DaveF. Here's where it gets tricky. I'd love to go 120" on the screen, but if I go bigger than 110", the AudioAdvice tool says that I'm too close to the screen for an optimal viewing experience. So I could fix that by moving the couch back, but then I'm too far back for 4 Atmos speakers (and getting dangerously close to the back wall, which would give some unwanted audio reflections, right?).

Any input on this?

 

[Mysto]

Thanks @DaveF. Here's where it gets tricky. I'd love to go 120" on the screen, but if I go bigger than 110", the AudioAdvice tool says that I'm too close to the screen for an optimal viewing experience. So I could fix that by moving the couch back, but then I'm too far back for 4 Atmos speakers (and getting dangerously close to the back wall, which would give some unwanted audio reflections, right?).

Any input on this?

Start from here. I am not an expert and I didn't even play one on TV but...
I like big screens. We are projecting at about 130" (as big as would physically fit in the room). We are too close to the screen based on most recommendations. However - we made sure to run close to the floor so we aren't "looking up" like the front row of many theaters. (We tried to use the 1/3 beIow eyesite rule) I have heard the argument that because the screen becomes too wide visually that you have to "paint the screen" with your eyes. Bull feathers. The world is wider than your field of view and you don't paint reality with your eyes. Most action takes place in the center of the screen and having some action in the periphery helps in the immersion.
Now having said that - remember how I started - I am not an expert and what works for me may not work for you.
Let's see what some of the expert guys think.

ADDED: this does not consider what the screen size might do to your speaker placement. YMMV

Cheers

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Any input on this?

I am not Dave

This is the advice I’ve given to everyone who’s wondered how big of a screen they should get for their room.

On the wall that you expect to project onto, hang a white bedsheet or some other inexpensive similar item you have around the house (or, if the wall is white/light colored, you don’t have to worry about doing even that). Set up your projector simply in the room - doesn’t need to be in its final resting place, just stick it on a table or something. Turn it on and put something (anything) on it.

Sit or stand where you expect your seating to be.

Adjust the projector zoom or physical distance to change the screen size, and see how they feel from your seating position. When you get the size that feels right, measure it. That’s your screen size.

The thing is, when you’re going projection, no one other single factor in your room will provide as much “wow” factor and satisfaction as the screen size will. You could have the most complex, perfect audio in the world, but if the screen “feels” too small in the space, it won’t have the impact you’re going for. And everyone has different preferences for what’s the right size for their preferred seating distance; no manual or formula is going to know that better than your own eyes will. Keep in mind also that no matter how big the screen is, your perception of it tend to “shrink” as you’re watching something. In other words, 110” may seem giant when it’s a blank white screen on the wall with the room lights on, but may feel small when actually watching a movie.

Every theater setup requires a compromise or trade-off of some kind. Even with an unlimited budget and unlimited space, it still happens. So the real key is to make the trade-offs that prioritize what part of the experience is most important to you.

If you can’t try to see how the actual projector works in your room when picking a size, think about your preferences when you go out to movie theaters. Are you someone who prefers to sit in the back row? The middle? Closer to the front? Everyone is a little different. My preference is to sit closer to a large screen. I know other people who prefer to sit further away from a smaller screen. Let your preferences inform your choice. But for whatever little it’s worth, I think a lot of these online tools tell you the “correct” seating position is further back than I’d ever choose to be.

With regards to Atmos, one thing I think worth pointing out, is that there isn’t a ton of Atmos content out there relative to the entire history of motion pictures and television content. It’s on some - but not all - new films, and even that is format dependent. A disc version might have it but the streaming version may not, and vice versa. Broadcast and cable programming doesn’t offer it at all. For original streaming shows, it’s hit or miss, and often dependent on what level of service you pay for. And even when something is in “Atmos,” there’s no guarantee the overhead speakers will be used frequently, or at all - just as there’s no guarantee that a sound mix labeled “5.1” is going to use all of those speakers. What I’m trying to convey is, overhead Atmos speakers can be an impressive element within a home theater setup, but it will almost certainly never be the part of your theater that is used the most.

On the other hand, you see the screen every single time you use your theater.

 

[JohnRice]

I'm going to encourage balance, which seems to be where you have been going.

I can't count the times I've seen people start only with the image, and make it as huge as physically possible, then move the seating back to compensate (which makes ZERO sense) and/or decide to severely hamper the audio because there's no room for speakers.

Your room allows a perfectly large image, and has space left for speakers. You can have both. I would argue that the highest possible quality image is more important than the largest possible image.

One thing you are doing right at the moment, which so many don't or can't, is not having the viewing area at the back of the room. If you want surround sound, the result can be so much better if there is space behind the viewing position.

I admit to being more interested in audio than most people. Still... balance. One of those two factors simply is not infinitely more important.

 

[JohnRice]

One additional comment. Good audio gear can last for decades, especially speakers. My L&R speakers just passed their 30th anniversary. Do you think any piece of video gear will have even 1/2 that use life? 1/3 of it?

 

[Colin]

@Mysto and @Josh Steinberg Thanks for the input. It's actually really helpful. I like sitting in theaters toward the front, but not in those lower front seats because I don't like looking up for 2-3 hours. So maybe I can go 120", but a little lower viewing height. And I love the advice of trying the sizes on a sheet before purchasing the screen. That makes a ton of sense.

 

[Colin]

I'm going to encourage balance, which seems to be where you have been going.

I can't count the times I've seen people start only with the image, and make it as huge as physically possible, then move the seating back to compensate (which makes ZERO sense) and/or decide to severely hamper the audio because there's no room for speakers.

Your room allows a perfectly large image, and has space left for speakers. You can have both. I would argue that the highest possible quality image is more important than the largest possible image.

One thing you are doing right at the moment, which so many don't or can't, is not having the viewing area at the back of the room. If you want surround sound, the result can be so much better if there is space behind the viewing position.

I admit to being more interested in audio than most people. Still... balance. One of those two factors simply is not infinitely more important.

One additional comment. Good audio gear can last for decades, especially speakers. My L&R speakers just passed their 30th anniversary. Do you think any piece of video gear will have even 1/2 that use life? 1/3 of it?

I'm with you... I'm more into audio than most people. That's why I'm not willing to compromise sound quality in the setup. I've been suffering with decent gear in a terrible room for the past 4 years. Setting up this dedicated HT room is my chance to optimize a space for audio, while also having a bigger screen than the TV in our living room. Thanks for the input!

 

[Colin]

In regard to what @Josh Steinberg shared about Atmos being pretty rare... for this reason, I was thinking of not going top-of-the-line with the in-ceiling speakers.

I just ordered an SVS Ultra Tower Speaker Surround System. Any recommendations on in-ceiling speakers for Atmos? Again, I don't want to break the bank, just add some overhead sound for those killer movie scenes that have Atmos channels.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

@Mysto and @Josh Steinberg Thanks for the input. It's actually really helpful. I like sitting in theaters toward the front, but not in those lower front seats because I don't like looking up for 2-3 hours. So maybe I can go 120", but a little lower viewing height. And I love the advice of trying the sizes on a sheet before purchasing the screen. That makes a ton of sense.

When you try it out, if you have the time, try to look at content with different aspect ratios - obviously the projector is 16x9, but within that container, a lot of films and shows are different ratios. You might find that most of the movies you watch are 2.40:1. Or if you like older stuff like me, a lot of your content could be 1.37:1. It’s worth taking a peek to see how the different ratios look on your setup before making a decision.

If you have the time to do an informal survey of the stuff you watch more frequently, that can help guide your decision. 2.40:1 movies, for instance, will be letterboxed within the 16x9 screen, and if you find that 75% of what you watch is that ratio, prioritize what looks best for that ratio. (If 2.40 looks perfect and 16x9 is a little large but you rarely watch 16x9 stuff, you know which one to prioritize when making a choice.) On the other hand, if you watch more or less an equal amount of different ratios, then it’s simplest to prioritize just 16x9 when experimenting with different sizes.

I also second everything John said above - he’s more of an audio guy, I’m more of a video guy, and if you’re making choices that both of us think make sense, you’re probably as well balanced in your decision making as you can possibly be

 

[Colin]

When you try it out, if you have the time, try to look at content with different aspect ratios - obviously the projector is 16x9, but within that container, a lot of films and shows are different ratios. You might find that most of the movies you watch are 2.40:1. Or if you like older stuff like me, a lot of your content could be 1.37:1. It’s worth taking a peek to see how the different ratios look on your setup before making a decision.

If you have the time to do an informal survey of the stuff you watch more frequently, that can help guide your decision. 2.40:1 movies, for instance, will be letterboxed within the 16x9 screen, and if you find that 75% of what you watch is that ratio, prioritize what looks best for that ratio. (If 2.40 looks perfect and 16x9 is a little large but you rarely watch 16x9 stuff, you know which one to prioritize when making a choice.) On the other hand, if you watch more or less an equal amount of different ratios, then it’s simplest to prioritize just 16x9 when experimenting with different sizes.

I also second everything John said above - he’s more of an audio guy, I’m more of a video guy, and if you’re making choices that both of us think make sense, you’re probably as well balanced in your decision making as you can possibly be

I was looking at the Epson Pro Cinema LS12000 for a projector. Its native aspect ratio is 16:9, but does that mean it can't project in 2:40:1? My guess is it's 50/50 between 16x9 and 2.40:1. Thanks!

 

[JohnRice]

Check out the RSLs. You may have to wait to get them. Excellent value.