2 Denon 3802 questions - dullness in voices/slight hiss in all channels

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Tom_Mack, Mar 22, 2002.

  1. Tom_Mack

    Tom_Mack Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2000
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have had my Denon 3802 receiver for about 2 months now and have been mostly happy with it (it is matched up with Paradigm monitor series speakers/sub).

    I was watching Disney's Hunchback last night and I felt the voices sounded dull and unatural. I have noticed this before with other movies. Re-eq is off. Is this a characteristic of this receiver or is it the movies? I know that the Denon is a warmer receiver, but to roll off the higher frequencies into the mid range voices is a little extreme to me. Does other Denon owners notice this?

    Also, I have noticed a slight hiss coming from all speakers. It is slightly louder in the front speakers than the rears. It is not really noticable from the couch, but I am wondering if the hiss is a defect in my unit and if it is a defect could this cause other sound degration that is audible.

    Thanks...
     
  2. Earl Simpson

    Earl Simpson Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2002
    Messages:
    803
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thats a new one to me. Maybe a bad connection or bad rcvr.

    DVD//check another DVD
     
  3. Aslam Imran

    Aslam Imran Second Unit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ive always thought the 3802 had QC issues. The more I hear about them the more I luv my 3801. Long live the 3801.
     
  4. Tom_Mack

    Tom_Mack Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2000
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aslam -

    When you say QC issues, do you mean that the all 3802s may have this problem, or that I my receiver may have problems that other 3802s may not?
     
  5. RyanDinan

    RyanDinan Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2000
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tom,

    I have a 3802, and I haven't had any problems with it..

    I get absolutely no hiss in any of the speakers...

    It sounds like you may have a bad connection somewhere - Or your receiver may be bad (let's hope not!). Are you using coax or toslink from your DVD player?

    -Ryan
     
  6. Aslam Imran

    Aslam Imran Second Unit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    0
    I only mean that I read so much about problems with 3802. Some get hiss, some get distortion in surround channels, some dont hear much channel separation, some hear popping/clicks when increasing volume and some say the sound is dull and recessed. I am sure these incidents are sporadic with only some 3802s, but it seems like Denon did skimp in QC when replacing the 3801 with the 3802. The 3801 OTOH seems like a much reliable model with far fewer complaints to hear about.
     
  7. Tom_Mack

    Tom_Mack Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2000
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ryan -

    I am using Coax from the DVD.

    I am not sure if it matters, but I am using the analog connections when listening to a CD because the sound seems much better that way. (I wonder if there is a problem with the D/A converter.)

    I disconnected all of the speakers and one by one reconnected them to see if one of my speaker connections was bad. I even tried removing the banana plug and tried bare wire, but it did not help. I did try to disconnect the TV/cable but that didn't help either. I will try disconnecting everything just as a test. I even checked the digital compression/night mode setting, but it was off (I also realized I was watching a DTS movie and the compression only affects DD).

    I have heard from you and others that I should have no hiss at low volumes and am now leaning towards the fact that I have a bad receiver. I assume that the voices in music/movies don't have the dullness when you are listening to your system? It really sounds like the upper midrange is missing a good amount. I would believe that a human voice (especially a male) would be below the rolloff point of a warmer system. Some reviews I have read talk about cymbals and other sounds in the upper treble range being toned down some, but what I am hearing is definately below that frequency.
     
  8. itai

    itai Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    0
    tom

    the 3802 is a natural sounding rec, a bit warm. that doesnt mean any lost sounds and certainly no hiss.

    try dvd's that you know, that are recorded perfectly, and judge by them. (or cd's)

    other than that, something might be wrong, but i can asure you the 3802 is perfect sounding!
     
  9. Tom_Mack

    Tom_Mack Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2000
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well I tried two tests last night:
    first I tried a music test:
    I was using the Led Zepplin remasters.
    When using the Denon 3802 DACs, things sounded good. Not great. I switched to the Sony DVD player's (530D not a expensive player) DACs and things sounded much better. The highs were just OK with the Denon, but were much clearer using the Sony's DAC. The bass seemed a little cleaner too with the Sony. It seemed slightly muffled all through the audio spectrum using the Denon's DACs, and this muffled sound is more audible in the higher frequencies. Because the Sony DVD analog outs clear up the sound I tend to believe that the problem is not with the Denon Amps, maybe the DACS?
    I then watched "Toy Story". Started with volume at -25db. Things sounded very good, but no "Wow" factor. After about 10 minutes I started to pick up on the muffled sound. Definately not a "crisp" sound on the high frequencies or voices. Turned up to -20db and things sounded good again (i think it may have just been that "louder sounded better"), but after another 5 minutes the slight muffled sound was again noticable. I may try using the DVD player's 5.1 output as a test tonight.
    The muffled sound is not extreme, but definately present. Its more noticable in the higher frequencies and at moderately high volumes (-20 to -17db). I'm sure at reference volume the sound would be very muddy.
    So I just want to be absolutely sure of these 2 questions:
    1. Should I be able to hear any hiss coming from my speakers at a low volume with my ear up the speaker? How about from 5 feet?
    2. Could the DACs in the receiver cause a slight muffled sound if not working correctly? Has anyone seen this happen before?
    Sorry for all the questions, but I want to be absolutely sure of everything when I bring it back to the store for an exchange. Tweeter's showrooms aren't all that quiet and the problems may be hard to diagnose in a not so quiet environment
     
  10. Chriss M

    Chriss M Second Unit

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    0
    with your ear on the tweeter you should hear a slight hiss. It's the noise floor of the unit and it's perfectly normal. You shouldnt be able to hear it from 5 feet away though.
     
  11. RyanDinan

    RyanDinan Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2000
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jeez....I can put my ear right against the tweeters of my JBL HLS 620's (89db sensitivity), with the volume knob at -15 and only hear a tiny, tiny, tiny, bit of hiss...So low in fact, that if I move my head away 6 inches or so, I don't hear it at all anymore.

    I've not heard muffled highes or upper midrange from this receiver. The receiver is warm overall, but highs are still clear and crisp.

    I use toslink for DVD, and coax for CD/MP3 - both from my HTPC. I've never actually tried analog inputs....at least not for music, so I can't really comment on a difference - But I don't doubt that you heard one. Now Im interested to try it out....

    I would venture to guess that there's something wrong with yours.... I really hope this doesnt happen to mine, since I bought mine from CrazyEddie (I know, I know) - and I know how fussy Denon is with warranty work from non-authorized dealers (however, CrazyEddie DID claim to be a " Denon authorized RE-seller").

    -Ryan Dinan
     
  12. James Zos

    James Zos Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2002
    Messages:
    725
    Likes Received:
    0
    Before I got my Denon 3802 I had an Onkyo 595. While the 3802 is much better, on some sounds--like the sound of a metal gate swinging open or keys jangling--the Onkyo sounded far superior...

    I just checked and with the volume set at -20 and nothing else turned on, I get no hiss. With my TV on I get a slight--but noticable hiss. Don't know if that is helpful to you or not.
     
  13. Tom_Mack

    Tom_Mack Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2000
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, I think I may be getting somewhere on my end. The salesman has asked me about my surge protector. Now for some reason I thought I had a good protector but when I got home I realized that I had a "Gemini Surge" no frills 6 outlet strip. I went out and picked up a Monster Power HTS 700 Powercenter and I think it may have made a difference in the clarity problem. I haven't been able to watch a full movie yet so I have yet to see if it actually did. The hiss is still there, but I noticed the hiss is much less in Direct mode when listening to CDs than in regular stereo or surround mode.
    Could the powerstip cause the muffled sound?
    Would returning the HTS 700 for the HTS 1000 gain me anything soundwise?
    Thanks for the help so far!
    Tom Mack
     
  14. Earl Simpson

    Earl Simpson Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2002
    Messages:
    803
    Likes Received:
    0
    Most low end power strips only clip volts above 330. A very nice thing to have. If it's rated at 15 amps, I would have a hard time believing it's the surge protector. But hey! It won't be the first time I'm wrong, or the last.

    Try another cheap one and also try to plug it to the wall direct for one movie( just not during a storm).

    I have a SAMS hometheater strip and it's perfect. But maybe my ears are screwed up and I can't hear what you are hearing. Sure sounds like a bad rcvr to me.

    PS//try a toslink cable for grins. That is what I am using.
     
  15. Tom_Mack

    Tom_Mack Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2000
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    I tried the toslink, but no change in sound.

    I was wondering if the HTS 700 would give me a better sound because the cheap powerstrip wasn't sending enough power to the receiver. I noticed this muffled sound mostly during movies. I listen to movies louder than music plus all five channels are being highly driven compared to two with music. I thought maybe the cheap powerstrip could not get enough power to drive 5 channels loudly causing a less than clear sound. I could be wrong, I'm going to watch either Toy Story 2 or Shrek tonight and see if I hear a difference.

    I am curious to find out if a slightly more expensive powerstrip would get me any better output. I know that the next level of Monster Power strips supposedly has the next level of power conditioning, but does going from level 1 to level 2 of Monster's power conditioning make a big difference?

    Thanks
     
  16. itai

    itai Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    0
    tom
    you got me worried for a minute there...
    1 - either you've got a super human hearing (?)
    2 - something's wrong.
    the 3802 has NO hiss, and is clear and open sounding!
    i just listened to toy story 2, looking for the dreaded muffled sound. after 10 minutes i got to the above 2 conclusions![​IMG]
    cheers
    ps - i live in a crappy apartment house, with who knows what electricity standards, and everthings working!
     
  17. Evan M.

    Evan M. Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2002
    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    0
    i have to agree with itai. i think you have a deffective unit. you should not hear any hiss from that distance away if you have everything hooked up correctly. i would say that a low quality power strip may be the cause for some of the things but muffled voices is a new one to me. i would think that if it is a power strip issue than all frequencies would seem a bit out of wack not just voices. i am not an electricion though so i don't want to get into a volt war with anyone [​IMG] i think you just got the bad apple of the bunch. the denon is a very warm receiver but that shouldn't mean it is muffled. i would take it back and get another one if you can. the 3802 is a fantastic reciever but for some reason in the last few weeks i have been reading about a ton of problems with them. maybe this is just a bad bunch that came off the assembly line. at any rate the 3802 is a great unit so hopefully you can get that problem squared away so you can enjoy all of its benefits. good luck
     
  18. Tom_Mack

    Tom_Mack Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2000
    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well I feel a little stupid about the dull voices. I realized that all of the movies that I have watched lately are animated. Hunchback, Toy Story.... Tonight I watched Toy Story 2. I felt the voices were a little better, but for both Jessie's song and Wheezy's "you got a friend" the voices/sound was wonderful. What is the problem? The way animated diaglog is recorded in a soundproof soundbooth. Sure effects are added afterwards but the initial recording is quite stale and I think this is what I was hearing. The two songs in TS2 sounded wonderfull and natural. I put in "The red violin" and the voices were all natural.

    Sorry for the confusion, I guess it was me all along.

    I have to say that the new powerstrip had definately improved the sound all around. The bass and treble are definately improved.

    As for the hiss, I'm still going to have to checked out. With so many people without any hiss, there is something wrong, I guess it could be the speaker wire... Hmm I guess I'll check that first.

    Thanks again....
     
  19. Brian Kleinke

    Brian Kleinke Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 1999
    Messages:
    974
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm debating about 3802 new vs 3801 floor model (diff in price ~$200)
    My post about 3801 vs 3802
    It would seem like a good 3802 sounds as good as a 3801. And only if one has a bad apple would a 3802 sound worse. I think I'll have to do some head to head tests. I'm getting either from a authorized B&M store, so no issues with warrenty should anything not work. And its not for my primary system so if I have to send it back in I'm not with out a system.
    ...leaning towards the 3802 (only because of DPLII)
    Brian
     
  20. Earl Simpson

    Earl Simpson Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2002
    Messages:
    803
    Likes Received:
    0
    I e-mailed you Brian. Give us a report when you get it set up.[​IMG]
    Remember 6th ave is a Denon authorized dealer and internet e-tailer as per Denon site.=
    Quote=
    WARNING TO VALUED CONSUMERS:
    The warranty on DENON Electronics products is NOT VALID if the products have been purchased from an unauthorized dealer/on-line E-tailer or if the original factory serial number has been removed, defaced or replaced in any way. Recently DENON Electronics has become aware of numerous instances in which such serial number tampering has occurred. Unauthorized dealers/on-line E-tailers and/or their suppliers frequently alter the serial numbers in an effort to prevent manufacturers from tracing the supplier source. DENON Electronics sell products through authorized retail and on-line channels to insure that consumers obtain quality pre-sale and after-sale support and service. PROTECT YOUR WARRANTY. Buy from an authorized DENON Electronics dealer/E-tailer. Check the unit and its packaging to determine whether the factory serial number may have been altered. If in doubt, call DENON Electronics at (973)396-0810.
    Authorized DENON Online E-Tailers:
    GoodGuys.com
    ListenUp.com
    Sears.com (Limited Selection)
    Crutchfield.com
    Ovation-AV.com
    6th Avenue Electronics.com
    end quote
     

Share This Page