2 channel music with bookshelf and sub vs tower and sub

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by KonradN, Mar 9, 2002.

  1. KonradN

    KonradN Stunt Coordinator

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    currently I am strongly considering the axiom m22ti (bookshelf) or the axiom m60ti (tower) and will pair them up with a jbl pb12. When using the sub together with my main speakers for 2 channel music, will there be any advantages by going with the m60ti over the m22ti? My guess is that both combos will sound identical from 80hz and up and 40hz and below. The difference will be in the 40hz to 80hz range and I am concerned that the m22 combo will lack some mid-bass slam, which is a very important criteria for me.

    Another question I have is if the bass extension and output of the m60ti is strong enough for the pb12 to be redundant?
     
  2. Steve Zimmerman

    Steve Zimmerman Second Unit

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    I'm not familiar with that JBL subwoofer, but the whole point of a subwoofer, IMO is to have a dedicated, physically moveable bass handler at frequencies less than 80 Hz. IMO, if your subwoofer is not better than your main speakers at handling the frequencies you send it (80Hz and below is most common) then you need to find a better subwoofer.

    --Steve
     
  3. KonradN

    KonradN Stunt Coordinator

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    Steve,

    You are probably right and I should add that the pb12 is a very capable subwoofer, but I have listened to tower speakers that provided so much bass where the pb12 was certainly redundant. Those tower speakers were unpowered but had dual 10 inch woofer in each of them and were powerd by a 2 channel HK amp.

    You also bring up another question I have. If you have speakers that can truly go down to 35hz and a sub that goes down to 20hz or more, should you set the crossover point between the sub and your mains at 40hz or 80 hz when listening to 2-channel music?
     
  4. Steve Zimmerman

    Steve Zimmerman Second Unit

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    If I had tower speakers that truly went down to 35Hz at 100 dBs and sounded better than my SVS CS Ultra at the frequencies between 35 and 80 Hz and the positioning of the mains with regards to frequency response was better than a corner loaded subwoofer then I would consider a bass management scheme wherein I crossed over to the subwoofer at a frequency lower than 80 Hz.

    Of course, if my mains sounded better than my sub at 35-80Hz then I would look for a better subwoofer... But it's my opinion that there aren't very many main speakers that sound better at 35-80Hz than a CS-Ultra.

    --Steve
     
  5. Marc H

    Marc H Second Unit

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    The M60TiSe will have better vocal reproduction over the M22TiSe because of their three way design. Bit larger and deeper soundstage too. Bigger dynamics too obviously.

    Using the sub with the M60TiSe will stil add some bass extension but you can always try them first without the sub to see if the M60TiSe bass is ample enough for your tastes.
     
  6. Bob_A

    Bob_A Supporting Actor

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    People should keep in mind that output levels at a given distortion level should not be the sole criteria in judging performance down low. Near full range response from the main channels can apparently lead to a more coherent and desireable soundstage. Also, superb blending between highs/mids/lows is assured and is controlled entirely by the manufacturer. Finally, a near full range speaker can give you the stereo bass effect. If you can give the speaker some room to breathe, you should seriously consider a speaker with extended bass response. Just my humble opinion though.
     
  7. Matt Weyen

    Matt Weyen Stunt Coordinator

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    I own a JBL PB10 and two technic T100's (30" tall, 6.5" mid, 1" tweeter and a bass port, 160watt handling) and the towers sound MUCH better set on small with the reciever than large. My towers are similar in many ways to a shelf set considering they are very narrow, but tall. Alone, the towers can put out a decent amount of bass, but allowing the towers to take the higher range with the bass taking the lower range just sounds soooo much better for me. I would save some money and go with the shelf's,,, spend the savings on someting else. Sometime in the next couple yrs, I plan on upgrading my towers to a nice set of shelf speakers since the JBL handles the bass well enough... but the tell ya the truth,,, I'm gonna upgrade the sub too. U're PB12 probably sounds better than my 10 by a decent amount... wish I had known what I was getting into when I bought it!

    Hope this helps... l8r

    MW
     
  8. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    >>>My guess is that both combos will sound identical from 80hz and up and 40hz and below. The difference will be in the 40hz to 80hz range and I am concerned that the m22 combo will lack some mid-bass slam, which is a very important criteria for me.
     
  9. Bob_A

    Bob_A Supporting Actor

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    I know of someone who just got some VMPS RM-2's (which run for about $2500 with free shipping) and he uses his setup mainly for music...and he claims that the bass on these speakers blows away his previous nOrh 7.0 + dual quality external sub combo. Sure his external subs would probably measure better with higher output and less distortion down real low, but ultimately it is not that simple IMHO. I know of many others who have actually found that extended response from the main channel speakers is desireable, even when used with an external sub. Clearly there is something about stereo bass which many enthusiasts have found appealing. The last thing you want to do, IMHO, is compromise on your main channel loudspeakers, especially for a music setup. Ultimately, hearing is believing.
     
  10. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    And someone might go from WS to P/S and then I can say I know *many others* who also like P/S on their video...so we should forget all we know of video reproduction and start recommending that everyone should try P/S asap because I like it and you shouldn't worry about the facts involved anyway...

    TV
     
  11. Bob_A

    Bob_A Supporting Actor

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    Are you implying that his external subs were not up to par with the rest of his system? Email me or PM me and I will tell you what kind of external subs he was using.

    The proof is in the listening.

    Edit: By the way, show me some people who have actually went from WS to P/S.
     
  12. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    he was using 20-39s.

    we don't need to *go off line* to mention that bob...I'm sure you get more joy out of it than anyone can imagine. I can only imagine for the next 5 years...everyone who asks about seperate towers vs good bookshelf+SV combos will be bombarded with

    "i know many others who like towers over SV subs for bass,blah,blah,agenda,blah,blah..."

    I'm not hear to argue what one person may prefer over another...I introduced some facts to the thread. Folks can prefer what they will...that doesn't mean we toss 30 years of acoustical research out the window though.

    TV
     
  13. Bob_A

    Bob_A Supporting Actor

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    What brings me a lot of joy is to hear about those new VMPS models. I am looking forward to hearing some RM-2's and RM-40's in the future. www.vmpsaudio.com
     
  14. Steve Stogel

    Steve Stogel Supporting Actor

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    (sigh) Mr. Vodhanel, I think the term "do not feed the animals" is appropriate here. I know you can only read so many posts before you feel you have to respond, but what good does it honestly do...other than quotes like
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "i know many others who like towers over SV subs for bass,blah,blah,agenda,blah,blah..."
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gotta say that had me rolling. Keep up the great job with Ron and the crew over there, and thanks again for being so active on this forum. BTW, how many forums do you frequent? I've seen you at at least 4-6, I think. I pretty much just hang out here. That alone consumes enough time for me. I honestly don't know how you get ANY work done [​IMG].
    Steve
     
  15. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Second Unit

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    hehe... I saw this title... and new exactly what was going to happen...

    All I have to say on the subject is.. I have it both ways and like each one... I dont personaly think any of the two ways is better! Setup and the enviroment will dictate this more than the equipement IMO.

    I have listened to Bob_A quite a bit...and personaly do not agree with all he say's.. but this hobby is so subjective..sometimes people forget that. Yes.. calibration and other matters are important..la-de-da...but he also has some good points..and does...in the least ..stand by his conviction....facts or opinions...

    thats all I have to say..Thomas a.
     
  16. Steve WC

    Steve WC Stunt Coordinator

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    Is this Interesting?
    (Copied from Audioholic News)
    LFE Output with Large Main Speakers on Receivers
    Introduction
    It sometimes makes you wonder how so many audio companies can continuously put out new flagship state of the art home theater receivers loaded with more and more useless features, boasted power, fancy remotes, etc and yet fail to fix or at least improve one very basic fundamental problem.
    The LFE Output should NOT be crossed over at 80-90Hz !!!
    Wake up people and smell the coffee. Just because THX specified a suggested LFE cutoff frequency, doesn't mean it is correct or that it must be followed. It seems that everyone is forgetting what a subwoofer is meant to do. It is meant to act like a subwoofer, not a woofer. The purpose of a subwoofer is to reproduce very low frequencies that most loudspeakers cannot reproduce with authority on their own. In the 5.1 Digital realm, the LFE channel was introduced as a means to alleviate the demand placed on the other channels to deliver low frequencies with ample amounts of "oomph" without limiting the dynamic range. The majority of Receiver Companies continuously produce Receivers with a fixed LFE cutoff (-3dB) at 80-90Hz. These frequencies are high enough to still sound directional, especially if the sub is located in close proximity to the listening position. This makes it easy to locate the sub in the listening room and / or reinforcing standing bass waves in the listening room (60Hz) by coupling with the bass output from the main speakers if they are configured large.
    Multiple LFE Settings?Why not ?
    At least if the Receiver companies are gonna set the LFE output (-3dB) to 80-90Hz, allow the user the option to lower the cutoff in increments of 10Hz down to 30Hz or at least in increments of half octave steps. I realize it costs more money to design variable active low pass filters, but not much. I believe it is money well spent, which can easily be counteracted if the particular company budgets their product by offering a few less useless features (IE. DSP modes, THX processing, etc).
    Conclusions
    I highly recommend looking at Separates Solutions with Preamp/Processors or a Receiver (good luck!) that offers variable LFE Frequency settings if you are using quality "large" Tower type speakers with inherently good bass extension. You will find the addition of a sub is much more useful as a compliment to your main speakers, producing deep, non-directional bass tones.
    Alternatively, you can give into the industry and accept the fact that most Receivers set their LFE at one frequency (fc = 90Hz), high enough to be allow your sub to play up to almost a 100Hz, which will most likely constructively interfering with your main speakers, increasing the chances of:
    1) Unwanted and unnatural sounding standing bass waves,
    2) Identifying the subwoofer as a point source rather than a discrete member.
    3) Excessive bass boom.
    Why pay for someone else's fantasy? It's time us Audioholics speak the truth loud enough for the industry to hear us and make a change. After all, we are the driving force behind their products. We are the one's who create the demand. Start demanding more flexible products for the money. Demand an adjustable LFE setting. Email your favorite Receiver company today !!!
    [email protected]
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  17. Tony Genovese

    Tony Genovese Supporting Actor

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  18. Steve Zimmerman

    Steve Zimmerman Second Unit

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  19. Saurav

    Saurav Cinematographer

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    I've always had a question in my mind about stereo bass - how does phase come into play at bass frequencies? AFAIK, it is well known that phase relationships are mostly responsible for soundstage, at least at higher frequencies. What changes in the bass frequency region that it makes more sense to sum the bass from the 2 channels and play them back through a mono subwoofer? Assuming a near-ideal situation with a minimally miked recording that was captured almost direct to two channels, I would expect that there would be phase differences in the bass that was recorded in the two channels. Why is it disadvantageous to throw that information away by summing the bass? I'm not trying to challenge "years of acoustic research", just thinking out loud [​IMG]
    Another question for you, Tom - you use the phrase "almost always" several times in your post about stereo bass. Does that mean that in a hypothetical ideal room, stereo bass would be the way to go, and that would preserve the inter-channel phase relationship; but in most practical rooms, the disadvantages of stereo bass outweight any advantages of maintaining this phase information? Also, AFAIK, most records are mixed with summed bass to both channels anyway, so my whole post is moot for all but a handful of records.
    For me, when I get a subwoofer, I'm pretty sure I want summed bass - the biggest advantage for me is cancelling out the low frequency noise caused by record warps. Because of the way information is recorded on an LP, any noise caused by vertical movement of the stylus is out of phase in the two channels. Summing the bass causes this noise to cancel out, which effectively achieves a rumble filter without having to add capacitors into the signal path.
     
  20. Tom Grooms

    Tom Grooms Second Unit

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    Steve WC, Whoever wrote that little passage needs an education in Home Theater and Bass management. I know of no receiver, and I guarantee you no THX certified receiver rolls off or crosses over LFE effects. LFE effects are not sent to any speaker other than the subwoofer unless you select NO SUBWOOFER during set-up.

    Everything this person wrote is wrong.

    Don't believe everything you read!

    $0.02

    [edit] removed some harsh statements
     

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