192 kHz vs. 96 kHz

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Randy Prue, Jan 2, 2002.

  1. Randy Prue

    Randy Prue Stunt Coordinator

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    I was very careful to get "full" 24-bit audio decoding on my DVD player, and now I see that some players and receivers do it at 192 kHz. The receivers I'm looking at offer 192 and it would be easy enough to upgrade the player.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience? Does it sound bigger, richer, more detailed?

    Acccording to the sales persons, this is the advantage: there's more sound available from the player (detail) and more processed by the amps and sent to the speakers.
     
  2. PatrickM

    PatrickM Screenwriter

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    Randy,

    There are no DVD players that allow you to access a 24/192 digital signal at its digital outputs therefore at this point the 24/192 DAC's in some receivers are unusable.

    At this point the only way to get 24/192 sound is from a DVD-A disc that has a 24/192 track but you will only be able to access the analog output from the DVD-A player since the internal 24/192 DAC's are used.

    As for the sound of a 24/192 stereo track off of a DVD-A, I like the sound and it does sound more detailed and less fatiguing than a CD but its hard to tell a big difference between a 24/192 and 24/96 stereo track.

    Patrick
     
  3. Randy Prue

    Randy Prue Stunt Coordinator

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    Thank you, Patrick:

    I would not want to use the analog outputs. Since you say there is not a big difference, I won't go crazy trying to get this feature.

    I'm leaning towards the new Yamaha V1200 (96 kHz) or Marants 7200 (192), over the Harman-Kardon 520 (192), but I am using other criteria mainly. I'll keep this filed in the back of my mind.

    I don't feel like changing the DVD player, since I really like it and it plays every disc I throw at it.

    Why do I have the feeling this will all be obsolete in two years?
     
  4. Marty Neudel

    Marty Neudel Stunt Coordinator

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    The 44.1/48/96/192 numbers define the bandwidth or frequancly range allowed. 44.1 allows for a 20+kHz(appr.) top. It is unlikely that any of us can hear anything this high, or even sense it. The test data on our hearing/sensing ablilities of 30+k sounds are contradictory.

    Remember, a 192k top would allow for notes of [appr.] 90+kHz!!!!! Even if we could hear notes this high, any speaker that can reproduce them, is unlikely to be able to project that sound more than a foot or two into the room.

    The real-world interaction between the harmonics in this range is reflected in any properly miked cd. Try this experiment for yourself. Go to a local high-end dealer who carries the Faroudja cd-player and listen. You will most likely walk away, as I did, having heard a smoother high-end from a 44.1k CD than from any of the DVD-A and SACD players usually talked about in this forum.

    The point here is that the numbers we bat about are far above what is required for accurate sound reproduction. Therefore, the proper test for any equipment being considered is how that unit sounds, in our own system, in our own listening-room. If the cheapest price doesn't allow for this audition, it is no bargain.

    We are all making an enormous investment, not just economically, but even moreso emotionally. It is important to satisfy our ears before closing the sale.

    Marty
     
  5. Randy Prue

    Randy Prue Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks, Marty:

    My ultimnate test for all of it is whether I can hear it and appreciate it.

    When they start telling me what speaker cones are made of, I tell them I'd rather listen to the speaker than to them talk (and that I had no intention of shooting a bullet at my speakers).

    I understand it the way you explained it. I'd like to hear that CD player (never heard of it). I'm getting great sound now, and it's getting better about every week or so. I haven't decided where to stop yet, but for now 24-bit/96 kHz is where it's all running, and it sounds great.
     
  6. PatrickM

    PatrickM Screenwriter

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    Randy, if you really want to hear great sound from your CD's go check out a hifi store that carries Linn and get them to demo you the CD12. Its hard to believe its not a high resolution disc when you hear that puppy. But, then again, it should sound good if the CD player is going to cost you $20,000.

    And, if your looking at those receivers, take a look at the Denon 3802. My friend just got one and I have to say it compares nicely to my 5800 but just not as good. Or even maybe the 4802.

    Happy hunting,

    Patrick
     
  7. Randy Prue

    Randy Prue Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks, Patrick:

    There is a Linn dealer here. I choken on the price of a $1,500. DVD player. I know there are $130,000. speakers, etc., but this is not where I would put that kind of money. I want a decent set-up for a few thousand dollars.

    So, you like Denon. I heard one comment about repair issues with new Denons (lots of them in the shop was the comment). I'm sure this is all good stuff. I have been listening to the best of it all in the sound rooms of "snob" audio.

    It's nice, but I would not pay the big ticket for this stuff. I'm trying to persuade myself to go over $1,000. for a receiver, double what I was planning to spend. I hear a difference, which is what increased the budget.

    Thanks for the info. I think I'll consider other brands. There are some other places to shop, with Denon, Rotel, etc.
     
  8. RicP

    RicP Screenwriter

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  9. Jim Thor

    Jim Thor Extra

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    Randy, I have a Denon AVR4802 and the Denon dvd 3300.

    I was able to grab the dvd player for a great deal.

    I have 3 DvD-A discs. Sting which is dts 5-1,Studio voodoo which is dvd-a and dts and the Eagles Hotel Ca which is Dvd a and 24-192.

    The disc will play at 24-96 in the 5-1 format.

    If I switch to Stereo mode 2ch it will play at 24-192.

    There is a huge difference in this to a cd. However the difference between 24-192 and 24-96 is unnoticable.

    I have the 6 analog hookup and a Digital coax running from the dvd to my receiver.
     
  10. Randy Prue

    Randy Prue Stunt Coordinator

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    Hell Freezes Over (is that the Eagles album, Hotel CA?) I have heard at one of the Yamaha/Paradigm dealers. Very nice.

    I found the Sony in their Evolve catalogue today: $4,500. list, CAD. I'll have to try to check it out. Found some different places to shop today, too... different brands and models to audition.

    Two other people I work with are very happy with their Denon. There are a few dealers for them near me that I can check them out at.

    Thanks for the info!

    Very down to earth and easy to understand. I'm pushing the envelope here (everything got obsolete all at once, as soon as I bought a DVD player, so I'm trying to upgrade a piece at a time, without spending a single day of less than 5.1

    :)

    How do you turn on the cute little smilies?
     
  11. PatrickM

    PatrickM Screenwriter

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  12. Randy G

    Randy G Second Unit

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    Just as a point of interest, the members of the Prairie State Audio Construction Society(PSACS for short, includes highly respected names like Tom Nousaine, Tom Perazella, DB Keele and many others) generally laugh when they hear discussions of these high bitrate/sampling rate formats. Not only do most of them feel that 44.1 is good enough, but some of them have intimated that the DVD-A and SACD formats may indeed be pumping up the bass or treble just to create a "difference" that can be heard.
    I recall that one of the members said that he comparatively tested the levels on some discs with a sound level meter and wasn't surprised that the bass was LOUDER as compared to the standard CD...which shouldn't be.
    My opinion is in agreement with those guys.
     
  13. RicP

    RicP Screenwriter

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  14. Scott O'Keeffe

    Scott O'Keeffe Stunt Coordinator

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    Ric,
    Couldn't agree more. Pop in Hotel California and see if some of you folks feel the same. It'll downright scare you. [​IMG]
    Now, where the difference will come in is whether you have parallel DAC's, combined with dedicated routing of signal, etc. Laugh, couldn't resist from the other post, Ric.
    I think sometimes we break down the schematics a little too much, and we should just rely on our ears.
     
  15. Randy Prue

    Randy Prue Stunt Coordinator

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    When you say "Hotel California", do you mean the Hell Freezes Over concert on DVD?
    I finally found a store that has it in stock. Wanna pick it up on da way hoam 2night.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. RicP

    RicP Screenwriter

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  17. Craig F

    Craig F Second Unit

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    Craig
    Randy,

    "Hell Freezes Over" is a DVD-Video. There are two versions, a stereo PCM disc, and a DTS surround disc.

    "Hotel California" is now available in the DVD-Audio format. It has both a 5.1 96K/24 track, and a stereo 192K/24 track.
     
  18. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    All,
    It's been reported to me, from a source of mine, that Hotel California was remastered straight from the original analog stereo masters to 24bit/192K.
    Of course I can't actually hear a difference between that and the CD [​IMG]
    Regards,
     

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