192 khz vs. 96 khz DACs

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Jon Duke, Sep 9, 2002.

  1. Jon Duke

    Jon Duke Stunt Coordinator

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    In looking for a new receiver I noticed that some have 192 khz/24 bit D/A converters and others have 96 khz/24 bit D/A converters. What exactly would the audible difference between these two DACs?

    For example, I'm looking at the Onkyo 600 (with 192 khz DACs for the front 2 channels and 96 khz for all other channels) and the Denon 1803/2802 (with 96khz DACs for all 6 channels). The only sources hooked up to these receivers would be the Panasonic CP-72, an Xbox, a vcr, and at some point a Dish or DTV receiver.
     
  2. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Given that at the moment there is no standard for 24bit/192K digital transmission very little [​IMG]
    Seriously, some of it is specsmanship (our DAC can decode higher inputs than yours!)..... Some of it is economy of scale. DVD-Audios inclusion on more and more players means that 24/192K DAC demand is going up. It makes more economic sense to use identical DACs in a particular model year of a product.
    The cost differential is almost non-existent between 24/96K and 24/192K DACs these days, and at the qtys purchased by mainstream companies, it might truly be non-existent.
    I know of one company that is using a sample rate convertor so that all Left/Right digital inputs are upsampled to 24bit/192K.
    Hope this helped clarify things for you. If not, post back and I can obscure them even more [​IMG]
    Regards,
     
  3. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    John,

    Can I ask a follow-up? If one plans to upgrade later to DVD-Audio or SACD, would it be best to get a receiver that has 24bit/192k? Or 24bit/96k is enough for both formats?

    Myki
     
  4. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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    SACD and DVD-A are only connected via analog so the DACs are immaterial unless the receiver can do ADC -> DAC on the 5.1 input (for bass management presumably). Even then, the receiver would need to have 192/24 ADC (most don't) which is rarely specified.
     
  5. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Craig and Myki,

    With the new models being introduced over the next 4-6 months you will see more and more receivers with 24bit/192K decode capability for all channels.

    That being said, unless you have a way of getting a 24bit/192K signal in, it's kind of wasted "specsmanship"....

    I suspect 2003 models will see more digital transfer of DVD-A data, though very limited transfer of SACD data.

    Also, PCM algorithms don't work too well for BM and time alignment on SACD.

    Regards,
     
  6. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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    That's what I meant. The only possible source of 192/24 PCM for most receivers would be if the receiver ADC'ed at that rate and resolution from the anlaog inputs (stereo or 5.1).

    Does Sony's bass management with their SACD players work in the analog or digital domain? Time alignment should not be that hard to perform with SACD since it only requires delaying some channels relative to others so buffering the bitstreams should suffice - this is all that is done with PCM.
     
  7. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    Ohhhh. okay. The thing with DVD-A and SACD outputting analog is clear to me now. But is there such a thing as a DVD-A player with a digital out? Isn't that disallowed by the DVD-A designers?

    But what if you have a DVD/CD player which can upsample to 192/24 like the Pioneer DV-S733A (47A)? Then would a receiver with 192/24 capability be better suited?

    Just curious since I would like to get a new player for Christmas.

    Thanks again in advance.

    Myki
     
  8. RichardMA

    RichardMA Second Unit

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    What about the DACS themselves? For instance, would the
    Burr Brown DACs in the Denon AVR-4803 result in superior
    sound compared to the Analog Device dacs in the lower
    model, 3802?
     
  9. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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    It is quite possible for a 96/24 DAC to have higher quality output than a 192/24 DAC for material up to 96/24 PCM (ie pretty much everything right now for receivers). Specs are never the total picture.

    Myki, what do you mean by the DVD player upsampling? They are still limited to 96/24 digital ouput unless you are talking about the VERY few receivers with the encrypted digital link for DVD-A.
     
  10. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Craig,

    You can't simply delay channels if you're applying bass management.

    If you're treating all channels as full range you can get away with it, otherwise, you have to compensate for phase when implementing the crossover.

    I don't know whether BM on the Sony players is analog or digital, but suspect it's digital.

    Regards,
     
  11. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Myki,

    Yes and no on digital output. As Craig pointed out there are a few cases where digital output is occurring.

    DVD-A Digital Output:
    1) Denon Denon-Link (DV-9000 --> AVR-5803) MSRP $8K or so
    2) Meridian MHR (598 --> 568.2 or 861) MSRP $13K - 20K
    3) Meridian MHR (800 --> 568.2 or 861) MSRP $20K - 30K
    4) Muse (Erato --> MAP) MSRP $14K (estimated)
    5) MSB MSB-Network (Mod DVD-A player + 3x DACs) MSRP $2K+

    SACD Digital Output:
    1) Accuphase (DP-85 --> DC-101) MSRP $28K
    2) dCS (Elgar --> Purcell) MSRP $15K (estimated)
    3) Sharp Proprietary (DX-SX1 --> SM-SX1) MSRP $9K
    4) Sharp Proprietary (DX-SX1 --> SM-SX100) MSRP $18K


    None of these solutions are cheap.

    Pioneer has some interesting stuff coming out with firewire, but it remains to be seen whether this will be an industry standard interface or not. I'm getting conflicting reports from my various sources.

    Regardles, I suspect that 2003 will see introductions of players with a standardized digital output going directly into receivers.

    Regards,
     
  12. Myki Cantero

    Myki Cantero Stunt Coordinator

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    Now I really get it!

    After checking a review of the Pioneer DV-47A DVD-player I saw, it said:

    "The player also incorporates Pioneer's Legato PRO circuitry, which upsamples 44.1kHz PCM program material to 176.4kHz and 48kHz material to 196kHz. Another feature, Hi-Bit, increases the effective bit depth from 16-20 bits to 24. Both features operate from the analog outputs (left and right front speakers only) and either or both may be switched off, if desired."

    So it only works with the Analog out. So for digital, it's only the 96/24 that can be used like the 96/24 DVD of Chesky Records.

    WOW! Those are extremely high prices to pay for digital output in DVD-A and SACD.... I guess I'll pass. :)

    I hope firewire succeeds. In any case, I'll just settle for analog connections.

    Thanks a lot guys!
     
  13. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Myki,

    Yes they are.

    Proprietary interfaces are expensive to develop and implement.

    Regards,
     
  14. RichardMA

    RichardMA Second Unit

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  15. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    In that case, we'd still be waiting for both SACD and DVD-Audio in multi-channel incarnations Richard.

    Regards,
     
  16. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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  17. DanielSmi

    DanielSmi Second Unit

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    The new Dv-47ai will have the i.Link interface and it will transfer all SACD and a handful of DVD-A's digitally. So all SACD can be transfered (maybe it's because they'll be using the i.Link version of the IEEE 1394 which is owned by Sony I don't think there's a difference between i.Link and Firewire (Apple Computers)) digitally to the 49txi and a few DVD-a's so I guess it'll have the same problem as the Denon Link where it can't pass protected DVD-A which is prolly about 99.999999% of them.

    Daniel Smith
     
  18. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Daniel,

    So far, it seems to be the WB titles that have the Copy Protect bit set to on (I think it's actually called the Copy Code Inhibit flag).

    Warner doesn't even have half the titles available on DVD-A, although I'm pretty sure they have the majority of sales of media.

    Regards,
     

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