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192 kHz/24-Bit on DVD-Audio: Start Here (1 Viewer)

Phil A

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Also, the current dominant format, CDs, have been around for about 20 yrs. The public (I believe it constitutes about 94% of sales of all music formats sold today) has endorsed it for the fact it does not wear like tapes or vinyl and is a convenient storage size. Consumers also like the format since one can stick and it and play, select track nos. in the home, car or portable devices. Retailers also have embraced it for its compact size. Pricing of CD is established within the marketplace. That is why it is called the compact disc. LDs (yes I own them too and a couple of players) also do not wear like tapes but did not catch on due to costs and the size of storage of the format with both retailers and consumers.

DVD-Vs eclipsed LDs and VHS for its quality, sound and compact size popular with both retailers and consumers. The size of the case of a DVD-V (except for thickness) was made to correspond to the size of VHS tapes.

We now have 2 hi-rez formats. SACD, which as a similar size case and retains all of the features that have been broadly embraced by the general public for music listening. Unless they are hybrids, SACDs are not compatible with current CD hardware. SACDs appear to be headed to that direction. Sony's prices for discs are still too high for the general public to accept it. If hybrids are to sell, they need pricing close to CDs of today. While I have no problem with them, single layer discs are not going to make it with the general public.

The other format, DVD-A, is banking on the fast track success of DVD-V. Unlike SACDs, there is no uniform standard as to the size of the media cases. I have DVD-As of 3 sizes, CDs, DVD-As and DVD-Vs. Not a good uniform solution to home or retail storage. With the exception of Warner's smart move on pricing, prices for discs are still too high for the general public to accept it. If DVD-As are to sell, they need pricing close to CDs of today. In addition to no uniform case sizes, there is no uniform standard of resolution, labeling and how the discs are authored so one can play them with or without a monitor. Major labels have been slow releasing software as well.

The masses (not me) seem to want quantity as much so or if not so more than quality. MP3 is very popular and prices are falling on devices that can be used as music services vs. CD changers. So we have 2 hi-rez formats that are trying to sell better audio quality than CDs to a public that seems to like low-rez (no insult intended to anyone's tastes) stuff like MP3 and DD and DTS. I think most of the public would rather have a concert DVD-V vs. a DVD-A or even an SACD, assuming videos of the same stuff are available. Hardware prices of universal players, combo DVD/SACD, combo DVD-A/DVD-V players are falling to the point that more average consumers will have them. So I don't think the hardware side will be as big an issue as what is available to buy and at what price on the software side.

I think that the next year or two will make it clearer which of the 2 formats will be much stronger. In the absence of radical changes, I don't foresee as many thread discussions such as these happening after that point. For now it is hypoethetical.
 

John Kotches

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Lee said this:
I will be happy to do this after you submit a 500 word essay on the backward compatability options of DVDA. Maybe 500 words is too much since there is none.
Every DVD-Audio disc produced to this point in time has been backwards compatible with every DVD-Video player produced to date. This has been the goal of DVD-Audio since day one, provide backward compatibility with DVD-Video.

That backwards compatibility has soundtrack requirements that mirrors the original requirements for DVD-Video. This would be either of a Linear PCM track at 48 or 96kHz at sampling depths from 16 to 24 bits or a Dolby Digital track, with channel counts from 1.0 through 5.1. Optionally, the content provider may provide a DTS track in addition to one (or both) of the above mandatory inclusions.

Sorry, I didn't count the words, but that's enough to get the point across.

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

Regards,
 

John Kotches

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Phil,

It's additional content that is simply unavailable on SACD is my point.

The artist and/or record label can add additional content as space permits, without sacrificing the quality of presentation of the music you purchased the disc for.

It might be something you watch only once or twice, but its inclusion can be very interesting to say the least.

Regards,
 

KeithH

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Wayne, with all due respect to Mr. Waldrep, look at his initial post. In my opinion, he was inviting a debate, even if his intention was to discuss more important matters.
 

Al B. C

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The last time that I looked, not every (read most) SACD was a hybrid.

And a non-hybrid SACD is backwards compatible with what?............................................. .................................................. ........................NOTHING!
 

Lee Scoggins

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The last time that I looked, not every (read most) SACD was a hybrid.
Most are hybrids according to Stephen Best' new count!

See my other post in the Forum on hybrids.

Gee Al, and I guess you really meant to point out that many DVDAs have no multimedia content as well to be fair to the thread?

:rolleyes

More of the same partisan Al.
 

Al B. C

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Lee, I'm not partisan. I love my SACD player!

It's great!

As a matter of fact, I've been enjoying the shit out of it.

But you make it sound that this backwards compatible deal with SACD is a big selling point, which right now, it isn't! Maybe some day in the distant future, but not right now.

Out of the 30 SACD's that I own, I'll bet that no more than 5 are hybrids. I hate to tell you this, but that's no selling point.


*****EDIT*****

I'M PARTISAN! :rolleyes
 

Lee Scoggins

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I hate to tell you this, but that's no selling point.
It most certainly is as its responsible for bringing you Bob Dylan's catalog and The Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd.

Sony is smart. They are using the power of foot traffic and sales numbers to get more bands to climb aboard. and they are backing their words by building hybrid production lines and spending major capital on same.

2003 is going to be a great year for Super Audio.
 

Al B. C

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They're not just backing their words. They're getting their respective asses out of a another potential major marketing blunder by finally succumbing to hybrid material.

Don't try and make me believe that Sony had this planned all along.
 

LanceJ

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As another poster said once:

Sacd is the rabbit and dvd-audio is the turtle.

And I'm not in a hurry either.

LJ
 

John Kotches

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Well Lee said this in his latest reply.....

Yeah, that's a great argument for signing new bands. I guess that's why they are choosing SACD.
Most artists are tied to a particular label, and when the label gets a financial incentive (in $$$ or in considerations such as production and/or production costs being paid for) it becomes about the money, and not inherent superiority of any particular encoding scheme over another.

Regards,
 

Phil A

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I also understand that Sony is reorganizing and trying to get away from divisional management where Sony Music is one profit center and Sony Electronics is another. That has to impact what gets released or does not and whether hybrids are pushed harder. Common management could mean a flood of new titles that are hybrids too.
 

Lee Scoggins

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Most artists are tied to a particular label, and when the label gets a financial incentive (in $$$ or in considerations such as production and/or production costs being paid for) it becomes about the money, and not inherent superiority of any particular encoding scheme over another.
According to David Kawakami, the backward compatibility was a major issue with the recent artists.

So it does matter.
 

John Kotches

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According to David Kawakami, the backward compatibility was a major issue with the recent artists.

So it does matter.
Yeah, I guess it does. Let's look at how major an issue for the upcoming Universal releases ok?

The Police catalog:
The Classics Hybrid Stereo/MC
Ghost in The Machine SACD Stereo Only
Outlandos D'Amor SACD Stereo Only
Regatta De Blanc SACD Stereo Only
Synchronicity SACD Stereo Only
The Police Live SACD Stereo Only
Zenyatta Mondatta SACD Stereo Only

The Peter Gabriel catalog:
Up Hybrid Stereo/MC
Birdy Soundtrack SACD Stereo Only
Passion - SACD Stereo Only
PG 1 - SACD Stereo Only
PG 2 - SACD Stereo Only
PG 3 - SACD Stereo Only
Peter Gabriel Plays Live - SACD Stereo Only
Security - SACD Stereo Only
Shaking the Tree - SACD Stereo Only
So - SACD Stereo Only
Us - SACD Stereo Only

Two very big selling artists, 18 titles and two hybrids.

Tell us again how David Kawakami says backward compatiblity matters, when the bulk of their catalogs are being released as SACD only media.


Oh, and my source for the information:
Link Removed
 

Lee Scoggins

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Tell us again how David Kawakami says backward compatiblity matters, when the bulk of their catalogs are being released as SACD only media.
What a feisty reply...What's a matter John, getting no love?

David was talking about the Stones and Pink Floyd Dark Side of The Moon. This is the template for future releaes.

I am disappointed that more Police and Peter Gabriel will not be hybrid but that likely has more to do with the labels dipping their toe in the water. I believe Gabriel may be the first of Geffen's releases for example.

The reason that more hybrids have not been done in the past is due to production capacity issues according to David. So to say "bulk of the catalog" is misleading. Things are different now.

If you look at Stephen Best's official count there are some 466 hybrids. That's pretty good and it will only get better with the Crest National capacity and the upcoming Terre Haute capacity of Sony.

:)
 

Al B. C

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Well, if backwards compatibility really matters, then why don't they wait until they have the production capabilities to produce all of them as hybrids, instead of just two out of eighteen?

I would rather they just release the 2 now as hybrid and wait for the other 16 when they can do it right. :)
 

John Kotches

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Lee,

First off, in response to this:

If you look at Stephen Best's official count there are some 466 hybrids. That's pretty good and it will only get better with the Crest National capacity and the upcoming Terre Haute capacity of Sony.
I'm curious, what makes Stephen Best's site the provider of an "official count" as you put it?

Also, in the past you have claimed greater than 1000 SACD titles have been released, yet over half of the titles by this "offical count" would then not be hybrid.

Is ~45% good? Not 3+ years into SACD it isn't. One of the biggest selling point is backwards compatibility, and with less than half the titles released being backwards compatible I wouldn't call that good. 60%, yes that would be good.

Regards,
 

Lee Scoggins

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Is ~45% good? Not 3+ years into SACD it isn't.
Of course it's good. It is a young format. Also, Sony wanted to get some titles out of the box quickly before hybrid capacity was readily available. The consumers benefitted from this.

Remember adequate hybrid capacity has only been available for a few months...
 

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