192 kHz/24-Bit on DVD-Audio: Start Here (1 Viewer)

[Mark_Waldrep]

It's been some time since I've posted on this forum...the reading always interesting it not always accurate. One of the recent threads talked about the new "AIX Sampler Disc" that we've developed as a FREE premium with any purchase from our catalog. The disc greatly expands the amount of information and demonstration tracks over the previous sampler. It started out as a simple upgrade and began a 600 screen treatise on the format and the world of high-resolution, mutli-channel audio.

As to the availability of 192 kHz/24-bit tracks on DVDs, this is the how it is handled. DVD-Audio can playback stereo recordings at 192 kHz/24-bits. The upper limit for 5.1 mixes is 96 kHz/24-bits encoded using MLP. As for the materials on our new Start Here disc, we recorded a half dozen new tracks using the Pacific Microsonics Model-2 convertor. When it came time to squeeze them on the DVD-Audio side of the disc space was limited...so we applied MLP to several of them and left the others as LPCM. The MLP algorithm is lossless so the there should be no difference...although it might an interesting comparison. You be the judge. I just thought that while I was creating this new DVD-Audio "textbook" disc, I should capture some new 192 kHz stuff. AIX intends to exploit 192 kHz/24-bit stereo as much as possible. Current plans call for 2-3 new productions per month.

One final note. Any statement that claims that DVD-Audio format is somehow stalled or desparately behind the SACD camp should have access to the Sound Scan service. Just to give a couple of glimpses into the sales last December through a large retail chain, it seems that the two formats had roughly the same number of sales. SACD turned 62,921 to DVD-Audio's 57,418...and this includes the Stones Hybrid discs!

At my own label, I am very happy to report that holiday sales have eclipsed my most aggressive forecasts. We are having severe growing pains and are pushed hard to get more copies replicated of Nitty Gritty Surround and The Latin Jazz Trio! The CES show in Las Vegas saw incredible sales...in fact, we ran out of several products. I'm convinced that great soundings records with multimedia, multiple mixes, video, interviews, and compatibility with all DVD players is a solid idea. Some of the new ones that we're completing even have multiple camera angle master classes by the performers. Imagine getting a guitar lesson with Laurence Juber.

Just my two cents worth. Thanks to those who have supported our efforts...it's really starting to happen in a big way.

 

[ReggieW]

Mark,

Thanks for chiming in with your thoughts. I saw the Paul Smith Trio sealed at a local record store here in Burbank for $11.99. I am not familiar with Smith's music but may just pick it up anyway for that price. I know you have released a few new classical titles through Image I may be interested in, so will likely be considering some purchases of them as well. ANyway, keep up the great work and do try to post more often!

Reg

BTW - have you tried contacting Wendy Carlos to see if she would be interesed in doing some synthesizer music for AIX? I have the remastered 20-bit versions of her "Swiched on" box-set and it sounds GREAT - we're talking only 20/44 PCM here. I can only imagine what her stuff would sound like in 24/96 surround using your recording techniques to capture the performance....Just a thought.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Any statement that claims that DVD-Audio format is somehow stalled or desparately behind the SACD camp

Mark,

I greatly respect your talents as a fellow engineer and appreciate the discs you contributed to the Hi-Rez discussion in Atlanta but I must disagree that DVD Audio is somehow close to having the momentum right now.

While the Sound Scan number you quote suggest similar sales, I think it is clear that the momentum is with Super Audio for the following reasons:

1. Dark Side of The Moon will be released soon (late March) on Super Audio. Clearly one of the most anticipated and best-selling albums to come to high rez.

2. Label support...there are approximately 50 or 60 more labels backing Super Audio last time I counted. If you look at the labels, the audiophile labels involved clearly indicate a ground swell for the SACD format.

3. Titles are perhaps the key driver for many consumers. Here we have over 1,000 titles available versus around 400 for DVD Audio.

4. Production capacity for Super Audio is coming on line rapidly and there was an announcement that Crest National is now operating as of this week. This is building up capacity nicely and shows how Super Audio is overcoming DVDAs advantages of PCM implementation.

5. Various Sony officials put the Stones series at selling around 2.5 million. No doubt that part of this is due to people purchasing the redbook layer for playback but it indicates the great deal of success the hybrid capability enjoys. Now we will have The Who, the Bob Dylan catalog, Peter Gabriel, and The Police (not all hybrid). This is simply smart, stealthy marketing by Sony and the participating labels.

6. There remains much more converage of Super Audio than DVD Audio in the high end press.

I do appreciate your comments and I am glad to hear that 192 is available for stereo. I find the transients on stereo at 96khz to be lacking versus DSD. I find 192khz sounds very good, however.

I remain, however, most fond of the Super Audio sound, particularly when there is a pure DSD chain involved.

Both formats will evolve tremendously I am sure.

 

[Phil A]

If it is the Best Buy chain you are talking about, forget about your numbers. They inventory DTS CDs with DVD-A and count them in Aacording to 2 Best Buy Mgrs. and DTS CDs are about 80% vs. 20% DVD-As. They also sold the James Taylor "JT" SACD in the CD section for $11.99 and counted it as a CD. I also saw the Elvis DVD-A in the CD section the other day. Audiophile independent labels like AIX, Chesky, Telarc, etc., are different from most other labels. Both formats are niche markets at this point and until there is software on the shelves by name artists from major labels that the mass market will buy they won't have made it (except for us nuts who buy the stuff). DVD-A with Warner's and EMI's deep financial troubles are slowing down what is already a niche format. While SACD is also a niche market, at least Sony is making an effort to increase hyrid capacity and decent amounts of software seem to be on the way. Sony is also working with hardware manufacturers and worked extensively with Linn on their platform for their forthcoming universal player.

Neither format has done a good job educating the public. Time will tell if either is making improvements. I suspect by CES of next yr. with what has been released and announced as coming we will be able to better gauge the health of either format and where they are headed in the future.

Mark, while you are here, is there a particular reason that you use the full size plastic cases for your releases. DVD-As mostly have that in-between size case that is too big for CD places and some have CD size cases as well. I like to keep my media together and when configuring media storage it is not easy. I also asked a store manager of a chain (Coconuts) if they will get more SACDs (besides the Stones) and DVD-As and one problem they noted was the storage of the inventory in all the various DVD-A cases.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I like to keep my media together and when configuring media storage it is not easy. I also asked a store manager of a chain (Coconuts) if they will get more SACDs (besides the Stones) and DVD-As and one problem they noted was the storage of the inventory in all the various DVD-A cases.

Which brings up the other issue of what I call "death by high end section" where an ill-advised location of hi-rez discs creates less foot traffic for retailers and keeps the brand further hidden. This happens to both formats. That is why I think it is critical to have hybrids so that things can be put in the regular bins...this has been particularly strong reason for Sony's success in hybrid reissues. And we will see Pink Floyd DSOTM in the Pink Floyd bin as well...

 

[Mark_Waldrep]

The reason that our titles are packaged in DVD-Video sized Super Jewel Box "King Size" is because they contain an entire side (a DVD-9) that is a DVD-Video disc complete with hours of video, interviews, hundreds of screens and multiple audio streams...DTS and Dolby Digital. I believe that the greater the media experience and the wider the compatibility, the greater the appeal of the product. I have lots of people write me expressing their fondness for the video and behind-the-scenes stuff.

As for the debate between SACD and DVD-Audio, I meant only point out that my business is very healthy and growing quite rapidly. There is a tangible feeling among the label folks, reviewers and engineers that I talk to that DVD-Audio is no longer running behind SACD. Perceptions and tastes may vary but both formats are not going away...my money (obviously) is on the type of products that AIX is creating...fully featured, integrated multimedia pieces that have new high-resolution recordings, multiple mixes, video, interviews etc. It's working. SACD is a great format but simply too narrow in it's capabilities to satisfy the media needs of the vast majority of media consumers.

 

[Justin Lane]

Titles are perhaps the key driver for many consumers. Here we have over 1,000 titles available versus around 400 for DVD Audio.

It is nice having alot of titles, but if they are of classical or jazz or other non-mainstream genre in nature, and no one buys them how does this equate to momentum. In my book sales are the only gauge of momentum. I will admit that it is better to have more titles then less titles, but this mainly for the audiophile market, and can not be directly equated to mainstream success.

J

 

[LanceJ]

Mark,

Is there any chance of you recording any rock music? I have been listening to the Pacifica radio network's local station (listener-supported) in my city to hear small-label bands and have heard lots of good-but-obscure music. Most of it sounds quite good (the station sounds almost CD-like sometimes) and there are lots of instrumentals, one of my favorite styles. Here's one of my favorite bands they play: http://www.theeltoros.com/bio.html

Thanks!

LJ

 

[Mike Broadman]

Reggie, the Paul Smith disc is pretty nice. Latin Jazz and Patrice Rushen are better, though.

Hi Mark, it's great to have you posting again. And, it reminds me check out the web site- I haven't bought any AIX stuff for a while. I remember you talking about some new classical stuff, including Stravinsky.

You mention the multi-media aspect of DVD-A a lot. Unfortunately, very few discs actually use it beyond just the menus and a paltry set of "extras." That's too bad, as video content and the improved sound gives DVD-A the potential to be something truly unique.

 

[Philip Hamm]

LanceJ.... Another Pacifica listener, huh? Great stations. My local one is WPFW, mostly (really good) Jazz and (also really good) Latin music. And of course, that fantastic Pacifica Network News.

 

[robertLP]

Um, 'part'??? Since when is 99% of the reason are buying something only 'part' of the overall picture???

Go to ebay, and do a search for "Rolling Stones Forty Licks CD" including the descriptions. Then, do the same for "Rolling Stones Forty Licks SACD".

When I tried it, I got 96 CD listings to *ONE* SACD listing. Go figure...

Rob

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Thanks for the information Mark. This has been my sneaking suspicion all along. SACD has more titles and labels yet sells about the same due to the artists and selection available.

It seems strange to hear Justin make an argument that DVDA is selling as well as DVDA based on one month's sales numbers.

If I had posted such a comment, no doubt that Justin would complain that:

1. One month is not a long enough history to base anything on.

2. How do we know what the sales numbers include? many stores do not contribute to Sound Scan...etc.

 

[Justin Lane]

It seems strange to hear Justin make an argument that DVDA is selling as well as DVDA based on one month's sales numbers.

If I had posted such a comment, no doubt that Justin would complain that:

1. One month is not a long enough history to base anything on.

2. How do we know what the sales numbers include? many stores do not contribute to Sound Scan...etc.

Lee,

If you feel that you are being wrongly persecuted I think it is time you give Jessie Jackson a call.

My post is not biased towards DVD-A in any sort, just a suspicion I have had all along. I really can't win with you. Within the past month I have upgraded my SACD player to a 222ES and I am still being called DVD-A biased. I think the numbers Mark posted are even more interesting when you take into account that the only major DVD-A release in December was The Nightfly. SACD has more titles which is always a good thing, but many of these titles are not from mainstream artists. I love Jazz and Miles Davis as an example, but the bottom line is Metallica, Fleetwood Mac, or Elvis (artists on DVD-A) will outsell Miles anyday of the week. When you take into account classical music the difference is even larger.

When you speak of the momentum gaining for SACD, the only place I see momentum growing is in the audiophile community. Many of the labels and titles coming out are not ones you will ever find at your local music store or for that matter material that 99% of the public has heard of before. Once again this is not a bad thing, because more music is coming out in Hi-res, but I am not naieve enough to think this equates to mainstream acceptance even in a small degree.

J

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I love Jazz and Miles Davis as an example, but the bottom line is Metallica, Fleetwood Mac, or Elvis (artists on DVD-A) will outsell Miles anyday of the week. When you take into account classical music the difference is even larger.

You raise an interesting point. We should really care about good music and here many audiophile labels like AIX really shine. And more than a handful of us recognize the inverse relationship between popularity and quality that commonly exists in music.

Here's my theory: just two channel audiophiles spend enough money to support the format on an economic basis, so one can jump in if one likes the music and rest at night that it will be around a while. If it catches on then the benefit of even more titles occurs.

By the way, I addressed momentum and not mainstream acceptance specifically.

Also, I specifically did NOT call you DVDAudio biased.

Also, I did not say I was persecuted and I would never call a racist to assist me on this.

So please stop putting words in my mouth.

I am glad you got a 222ES and you are enjoying the format, but I must call you on basing a theory on one data point. You have done this to me many times before.

I guess paybacks really are hell.

 

[KeithH]

Mark, glad to see you back here. You said:

Any statement that claims that DVD-Audio format is somehow stalled or desparately behind the SACD camp should have access to the Sound Scan service. Just to give a couple of glimpses into the sales last December through a large retail chain, it seems that the two formats had roughly the same number of sales. SACD turned 62,921 to DVD-Audio's 57,418...and this includes the Stones Hybrid discs!

Thanks for sharing these figures. People have been debating sales figures for the past couple of years, but no one ever posts the actual numbers. It is fair for people to question what this data means (e.g., Best Buy's inclusion of DTS CDs with DVD-Audio discs), but I still find the data from Sound Scan to be interesting. What I cannot say for sure is if the numbers are telling. Regardless, I agree with Justin that DVD-Audio discs in the retail stores should sell well. When I walk into Best Buy, I see a lot of SACDs that the average shopper would have no interest in (Telarc, Sony classical, etc.). There are more rock and pop titles in the DVD-Audio section. Yes, there are the Stones SACDs, but I believe strongly that most people are buying them as CDs. After all, that's how they are being marketed to the public, and that is what most people want (CDs).

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

Why does every thread have to degenerate into a DVD-A vs. SACD argument?

 

[John Kotches]

Well, take the bulk of the weekend away from the computer, and look what you get.

Lee, a very quick question for you:

Could you please compare and contrast the DVD-V material included on DVD-As with similar material available on any SACD produced to date. Here's your words.

... much of the multimedia experience is ho-hum on the DVDAs I have bought so far and many of the others I have witnessed at friend's houses.

I suppose one could call the documentary footage and interviews on Neil Young's Harvest ho hum, but certainly fans wouldn't. Some people like Music Videos too.

Of course we can't be critical of these features in SACD. Why? Because they don't exist.


Regards,

 

[Phil A]

John, that assumes that one is buying hi-rez and wants some video content. I have few concert videos, but if I want one of those I will buy it and I do on rare occasion. I understand that may not be everyone's choice, but if I am buying music, I want quality with regard to the music (regarless of format not looking to make this a format war, I own both). I feel the same way about TVs. I am not going to buy a TV for its included speakers and amplifier as my system is much better. The CD format is the main format of choice endorsed by consumers (something like 94% of all music sales I believe I read). CD plus graphics or text may still exist for karyoke but was a failure other than that. If formats are to survive, other than a niche market, they need software from major labels and known artists. For the most part on a DVD-A, I listen to the music and if there is a short video or something (e.g. artist info) I may watch it once at most. Other than that, I don't place any value on the video content. Most people I know who like concert videos can't understand why I bought the DVD-A of "The Last Waltz" instead of the DVD-V. I just ordered a couple of SACDs and the DVD-A of "Music From Big Pink." When I order a DVD-A, I don't look to see what video content it has or does not have.

 

[robertLP]

Whoa, my bad. I was under the impression that all of the new Stones' releases were SACDs.

It doesn't change the opinion, though, that the vast majority of the new Stones SACDs were for CD play. I guess there's no way to know what the figure is for certain; maybe it's as much as 99%, maybe as little as 98%.

Rob

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Could you please compare and contrast the DVD-V material included on DVD-As with similar material available on any SACD produced to date. Here's your words.

I will be happy to do this after you submit a 500 word essay on the backward compatability options of DVDA. Maybe 500 words is too much since there is none.