16:9 HD progressive displays that pass 480 p natively??

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Chris PC, Feb 16, 2002.

  1. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    What displays pass 480p natively?

    I have a 32" JVC TV now and I use a Panasonic CV51 interlaced DVD player. Some day, I would like to switch to progressive DVD and "HDTV" display. I have noticed that DVD's played back on some Panasonic, Toshiba or Hitachi HDTV's look poor and not sharp at all. I have stumbled on the fact that some TV's not only line-double the NTSC cable (which sucks and I have to live with that too), but they also up-convert 480p progressive DVD output to 540p. If this is what is happening, then in my opinion, this is stupid and it looks really bad. The detail is poor with artifacts that clearly tell me the information is being corrupted and lost. I can see that the display is progressive because there are no scan lines, so more of the screen area is showing the image, but to me, it looks mushed up or distored. I see this up-converting in the specs of TV's now as I have learned about what I'm seeing, 540p and 1080i. I realize that the only way they display 480p DVD on those sets is through some conversion.

    Does what I say make sense?

    So, what HDTV's currently display progressive DVD player output at their native 480p?? Could someone reduce my search time by pointing me to the companies that do this?
     
  2. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Although there are those more qualified than I that will tell you the 480p to 540p conversion does degrade the picture, it shouldn't be as bad as what you describe.
    Mitsubishi and Sony do not do this, there are probably others but those are the 2 I'm sure about.
     
  3. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    OK, but the TV's I saw did look rather poor. I guess I'm a little extreme in my description. Its just that I figured HDTV would look sharper and have more detail. To me, its mushy and has less detail. It is contiguous, yes, there are no gaps or scan lines for sure, but the sharpness isn't there. We have no mitsubishi vcr's in Canada, but I think there might be Mitsubishi TV's here.
     
  4. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Chris,
    In my experience (and I've done an awful lot of tv shopping in the last few years) the absolute worst place to evaluate tvs is in the stores. The quality of what's being fed to these sets is crucial to getting a decent picture and this varies widely. Even the best player hooked up to the best tv can look pretty bad if they use junk cables or have the tv and dvd player misadjusted. Also keep in mind that some dvds show film grain or just have poor transfers, which can make the tv look crappy.
    If you already have a dvd player, I'd suggest you get a copy of one of the calibration dvds like AVIA, and familiarize yourself with adjusting the various user controls to get the best picture. This won't compensate for lousy store feeds or poor dvd transfers, but if you look at the same model tvs in several different stores and adjust them yourself, you can at least get some clue as to what to expect from them.
    Once you get a feel for this you should be able to adjust sets in stores to get a better idea of their capabilities.
    In my experience, progressive scan dvd can approach true HD in picture quality.
     
  5. Brian Schucher

    Brian Schucher Supporting Actor

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    "Its just that I figured HDTV would look sharper and have more detail."

    Remember that neither 480p or 540p are HDTV. Have you seen any of these sets display 1080i or 720P (not sure if any of the mentioned sets will display 720p though). I currently own a Toshiba that does indeed upconvert 480 to 540. Although some say they see the artifacts from this upconversion, i guess i dont. Some DVDs look ABSOLUTELY outstanding on this set and some just plain suck.. The source is usually responsible for that
     
  6. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Reviving this thread I guess, as I curiously look more at HDTV's in stores.

    I noticed the artifacts all the time. Only when I find out that either the signal is pure HDTV or DVD passed in its native form to the display, does it look good. Hey, if I find a set that doesn't degrade the image, then thats great, but so far, the conversion looks crap to me. I guess I'm picky. And when I say crap, I mean I'd rather watch interlaced than the progressive thats poorly converted. The atifacts I see literally wash away the small detail.

    So what sets currently pass progressive DVD natively?
     
  7. Stephen Houdek

    Stephen Houdek Second Unit

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    There are a few........Hitachi being one, that do a true 3:2 pulldown from progressive sources. I have a progressive scan DVD and I use the 3:2 pulldown on the TV instead of the DVD player.

    The picture is excellent in all respects. I don't have HDTV yet but can only imagine how good that will look as compared to the DVD progressive scan.
     
  8. Neil White

    Neil White Supporting Actor

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    Sony HS and XBRs pass 480p. The XBRs have the 3:2 pulldown as well.

    The HSs upconvert 480i to 960i and the XBRs can do 480i as either 480p or 960i. Both though can do 480p from 480p sources.

    N
     
  9. Guy Kuo

    Guy Kuo Supporting Actor

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    It is more economical for manufacturers to scale everything to the same or nearly the same resolution prior to display. Every different resolution/scan rate requires a separate convergence memory and setup at the factory. Intro level scaling technology is getting cheaper but setup isn't so it makes sense to minimize the number of setups needed at the facotry. By scaling everything to 540P or 1080I equivalent, they can get by with just a single convergence memory. The results are not as clean as native 480P if the internal scaler isn't a high performance unit. A nice test of the scaler is to look at the 200 TVL Resolution test pattern in SV Home Theater TuneUp or AVIA. Pay particular attention to the resolution wedges in both the vertical and horizontal directions. On a display with poor scaling to a non-native rate, you will see artifacts which distort or even completely obliterate details in the resolution wedges. You also see an analogous type of scaling and resolution loss, especialy in the horiztonal direction, when a 16:9 display places a 4:3 image in its center screen by scaling. It is often not very pretty at all when you examine what is happening with something which reveals the effects like a resolution pattern.
     
  10. John Royster

    John Royster Screenwriter

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    ^^^what guy said.

    Sometimes you can see the artifacts caused by this conversion using DVD. But to really see what is going on check out some test patterns. The wool will be lifted from your eyes.

    And to your original question - Mitsubishi does display 480P natively.
     
  11. JohnHN

    JohnHN Stunt Coordinator

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  12. DavidMich

    DavidMich Stunt Coordinator

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    I think that if you go and see a properly calibrated Pioneer set, you will be blown away. I know I was.
    They are simply stunning.
    They have the best "line doubler" of any RPTV on the market today. In fact, I also believe that they have the best stretch modes, too![​IMG]
     
  13. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Cool. Thats really good info. I will continue to look at sets with those things in mind. I regret I can't afford a set right now. I want to switch from my 4:3 32" NTSC TV to at least a 42" 16:9 over the next little while. One of my other concerns is power. It seems the big sets, hdtv, plasma, rptv, projectors etc all take lots of power. I am really hoping that the technology improves such that power requirements are reduced somewhat. I know its sorta been the nature of the beast, but look at north america and the crazy amount of power we all use. The less we use the better. Every time we use power, its either creating smog from coal power plants or slowly making neat swimming pools of radioactive waste. Really, I just want the manufactures to seriously invest in more efficient technologies and really seriously so that image quality doesn't suffer.
    That said, I guess not watching movies and TV too many hours a day is a good way to reduce energy use. I should actually use my PC less, cause this 19" monitor uses as much power as my 32" TV!!! So I'm guilty as the next person. I did, however, wire all my components to switches on the wall so that when I'm not using them, the only thing left on is my VCR..heheh. Works great for me [​IMG]
    But seriously, I would still have bought a 16:9 TV if the more affordable ones passed 480 natively. I wonder if Mitsubishi sells TV's in Canada? I can't remember....i know they don't sell VCR's here.
     
  14. Allan Jayne

    Allan Jayne Cinematographer

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    480p coming into the TV is analog. 480i coming into the TV is also analog but is converted to digital during the doubling (de-interlacing) to become 480p. If (I believe all) the scaler that converts 480p to 540p/1080i does its work "in the digital domain" we might have another analog to digital conversion between the doubler and the scaler inside the TV that will degrade the picture.
    All digitizing has a "pixel width" namely the number of pixels each incoming scan line is chopped up into. Although DVD video is 720 pixels across, coming in as analog and digitizing it again to just 720 pixels usually causes noticeable additional softening, or mushiness.
    I don't know which TV sets upscale the 480p to 540p right out of the doubler without a digital to analog to digital conversion in between, or what the pixel width of the digital circuits are for any given make and model. This adds to the mystery of how good or bad the conversion from 480p to 540p is.
    Oddly enough, the video that was once interlaced and coming out of the TV's doubler can be returned to analog (required for CRT's) to appear as a 4:3 picture with gray side bars and no visible ragged edges within a 16:9 screen with no additional degradation compared with filling said screen as 16:9. Perhaps this is one of the secrets behind TV sets that are locked into full mode when receiving progressive scan or HDTV. The latter formats would have to be digitized to be "retimed" to occupy a 4:3 shaped space as the electron beam sweeps across, or the picture tube scanning would have to be narrowed causing problems with geometry and convergence. Yet again I don't know what TV sets do what.
    Video hints:
    http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm
     
  15. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Chris,
    Hitachi and Toshiba do the 480 to 540, Sony does not, will display 480p natively, is priced about the same, and is available in Canada.
    My KP57HW40 57" Sony widescreen set uses 280 watts at peak output. This is actually less than many 32-36 inch direct view sets.
     
  16. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Cool about the Sony. Its true I've noticed so far that some RPTV's are power hungry while others are not. Not bad really. I am hoping for better in the future, not worse, thats all [​IMG] Certainly, Plasmas are unfortunately really power hungry.
    I'll check into the Sony, Pioneer and Mitsubishi sets. I don't think I can afford one right now, but ... some time not to far off... [​IMG]
     

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