1080p/24 make PAL/NTSC differences thing of past?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Khai L, Mar 25, 2006.

  1. Khai L

    Khai L Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Khai
    With BluRay and HDTV releases apparently able to provide 1080p/24 images, does this makes PAL/NTSC comparisons a thing of the past?

    Or will BluRay/HDTV releases in Region 4 etc be at PAL frame rates?
     
  2. Daniel-M

    Daniel-M Second Unit

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    333
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would think so.
     
  3. Mark Lucas

    Mark Lucas Second Unit

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    0
    It should be up to the player to convert the signal to the display devices refresh rate. At least that's how it should be done. I'm not sure how it will be handled now.
     
  4. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    2,713
    Likes Received:
    0
    The oversight boards in the PAL countries moving over to HDTV decided to be morons and still created their HD technology based on 50 Hz, so yes there will still be speed up.

    Now, if the discs made for those countries are still encoded as 1080p/24, there should be a selection to allow no conversion and have the display be able to accept the signal and convert in a way that there is no need for pitch and frame speed up, and no added judder with a screwy frame conversion. The Sony Blu-Ray players for the U.S. will allow raw 1080p/24 output as well as converted 1080p/60 (I don't know about other manufacturers), so they should have a user selectible output on European and Australian players. Will they? Who knows.

    Dan
     
  5. Max Leung

    Max Leung Producer

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2000
    Messages:
    4,611
    Likes Received:
    0

    Seriously? Un-frakking-believable.

    Will the European broadcasters limit their content to 50 hz then? Geez...
     
  6. Lew Crippen

    Lew Crippen Executive Producer

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    12,060
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is not so much a decision, as it is a reflection of the power infrastructure in Europe.

    In the States you get 110/120V at 60Hz. Most European countries deliver 220/240V at 50Hz..

    This means that appliances are designed to work properly on 50, not 60 cycles. Appliances include not only clocks and hair dryers, but TVs.

    This is not a plot against movie lovers, but an acknowledgement of reality.
     
  7. Marko Berg

    Marko Berg Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    857
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dan, you're totally wrong. The HD video standard based on 50Hz refresh rate is for broadcast purposes, i.e. for the DVB system. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with an HD system based on 50Hz, especially as it helps ensure backward compatibility with old analogue TV sets without the need for expensive framerate-converting set-top boxes.

    According to EICTA, all display devices sold as "HD ready" must among other conditions accept both 50Hz and 60Hz signals, in 720p and 1080i at minimum, via both component and DVI or HDMI inputs. Therefore, all European display devices are capable of multisyncing, just like every analogue TV set made in the last ten years which can display both PAL and NTSC natively.

    The refresh rate of HD broadcasts in Europe will not affect the quality of Blu-ray or HD DVD titles in any way.
     
  8. Shawn Perron

    Shawn Perron Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2002
    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    0


    The refresh rate of a modern digital TV has nothing to do with the power going into it. There is no reason that new digital sets in PAL territories couldn't refresh the screen at 60hz.

    I think they are sticking with 50hz just because a majority of thier programming is mastered at 50hz. It's the same reason that NTSC regions will be staying with 60hz. There is no real reason we couldn't up the refresh rate to 72hz for movies for smoother playback other then 60hz being the old standard. At 48hz or 72hz there would be no more judder.
     
  9. Daniel-M

    Daniel-M Second Unit

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    333
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anyway, they will probably release the discs in 60HZ, cause why make another master when the TV's support 60HZ anyway
     
  10. Lew Crippen

    Lew Crippen Executive Producer

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    12,060
    Likes Received:
    0
    Absolutly correct—but even though those sets might be made—I don’t that that they are.

    The refresh rate for existing TVs (as far as I am aware) is 50 (or 100) Hz.
     
  11. Rob_Walton

    Rob_Walton Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    What speed should they have used? 60Hz with all the issues inherent in film frame rate conversion? Simple fact is that plenty of content has already been shot in HD in Europe and the frame rate will almost certainly have been 25fps. (just as in the US I'd imagine video based HD content is shot at 30fps) As has been mentioned all "HD ready" TVs have to be capable of receiving 50Hz and 60Hz in UK (not sure about the rest of Europe). Is there a similar stipulation for US TVs, or are you again going to be forced to watch converted and occasionally butchered versions of our shows?

    The real question revolves around HDTVs with the ability to receive and display at 48Hz or even 72Hz for film based material. Are there any currently on the market? Since the film based material looks set to be encoded on Blu-ray at 1080p24 it would be a worthwhile feature to have, in my opinion...
     
  12. Steve Berger

    Steve Berger Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2001
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    3
    I'm sure someone will be sure that I am gravely mistaken or that it does not apply to digital displays, but in the USA, if you have an analog PAL TV and play a PAL video around incandescent (60hz) lamps, the picture will "flicker" unless you turn off the lamps. I would suspect a similar symptom would occur in the UK with 60hz material.
     
  13. Rob_Walton

    Rob_Walton Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    But why would you play a PAL signal at 60Hz?
     
  14. ChristopherDAC

    ChristopherDAC Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    3,729
    Likes Received:
    0
    Half of Japan is on 60 Hz power, and the other half is on 50 Hz power. The whole country uses NTSC colour television for Standard Definition service, and has for decades, which is nominally 60 Hz but actually 59.94. The whole country uses exactly 60 Hz as the field rate for High Definition television, either digital or analog [MUSE service]. The power mains frequency had an effect on televisions in the 1930s and 1940s, when power suplies and synchronising circuits were poorly shielded, but that condition ceased long age.

    The argument is sometimes made that, if the framerate differs from the mains rate, there will be problems with flicker when fluorscent or arc lightning is used. In truth, according to what I know, the truth is the other way: special poly-phase and dely ballasting arrangements are necessary to avoid problems when the two rates are the same, in the nature of a flicker which is stationary on the screen.

    In any case, 50 Hz is too slow to avoid visual flicker in a brightly-lit room; in fact, for wide-angle displays, I've had problems with 60 Hz, albeit in a showroom context which was over-brightly lit. This isn't such a compelling reason with LCDs, but with other technologies [not just direct-view CRTs as one might expect] the results can be rather hairy. This is why CRT computer monitors are often refreshed at 85 HZ and above; I use 75 myself, and find 60 intolerable.
     
  15. Khai L

    Khai L Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Khai
    Not sure if I'm totally confused, but I might ask anyway.

    I live in Aust and so have PAL. My home theatre setup supports NTSC, so when I use a R1 DVD, it plays fine. Are you saying that when I play an NTSC DVD in my system, it speeds it up to match PAL?

    I would have assumed that if the display device and other equipment all support NTSC, then there would be no speed up.

    So with Bluray/HD DVD, if R1 are encoded at 1080p/24, if I was to buy the R1 disk instead of the R4 disc, I assume it would also be shown in 1080p/24, not sped up.

    Also, with NTSC have less vertical lines than PAL, I assume this issue is moot with the upgrade to 1080p.......

    I think I'm still confused.
     
  16. ChristopherDAC

    ChristopherDAC Producer

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    3,729
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't worry about it. Your HT setup plays back "NTSC" DVDs [480/29.94] at their native speed, and "PAL" DVDs [576/25] at their native speed. It's a "multisync" display which will try to show whatever you feed it, or [possibly] it uses a 30 → 25 framerate converter; either way, there's no change in playback speed.

    Also, no matter what the playback framerate, 1080 is 1080. The line count is the same, except if you get saddled with something recorded in the accursed American "720p" format, or the occasional older 1035-visible-line recording.
     
  17. Rob_Walton

    Rob_Walton Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sadly 720p has now crossed the Atlantic and set up shop over here in Blighty as well. Many of the TVs released in the last 5 years in the UK are 50/60/100 Hz so there shouldn't be any specific problem with this issue. The real question is going to be how the native frame rate of film content encoded on Blu-ray discs is eventually handled. If the TVs are still only able to accept 50/60/100Hz (or only 60Hz in The States) the old processes of either speed up or pull down will have to be applied. Shame since it should be so easy to make TVs capable of 72Hz refresh rates.
     
  18. Roger_R

    Roger_R Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    1
    Every TV-show I've seen from the US that has been shot in HDTV, has been at 24fps. In fact the Prison Break screener thing I have has 1080p24 written on some of the shots. The older tape-based shows, like X-Files and the Star Trek shows, were shot at 23.976/24fps too since I can do an inverse 3:2 pulldown on them successfully. They do have some break-ups in the frame pattern though (since they were edited on tape) so if the studios intend on making them progessive for the high-def formats, it'll be easy to screw up the conversion.
     
  19. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    2,713
    Likes Received:
    0
    The problem is soundtrack pitch and frame speed up. They should have gone with something that eliminated both (like a computer monitor that can take all kinds of refresh rates). At least in the NTSC and ATSC standards we don't have to live with that. The European players could and should have raw 24 fps output besides the normal 50 Hz conversion for backwards compatibility so you can have a display that doesn't require speedup as I mentioned before (choosing 72 Hz as an example).

    I'm glad Japan and a few Asian countries are now a part of Region 1 for HD discs. I won't have to import from European countries and won't have to live with speed up.

    Dan
     
  20. Max Leung

    Max Leung Producer

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2000
    Messages:
    4,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ouch - this issue is more complicated than I thought it would be.
     

Share This Page