100hz vs 80hz crossover question.

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Kevin. W, Nov 19, 2001.

  1. Kevin. W

    Kevin. W Screenwriter

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    Could anyone tell me what affect having a crossover of 100hz vs 80hz will have when setting speakers to small. I ask this question because I'm looking to replace my Denon 1801(Crossover: 80hz) with a Marantz AV560 Pre/Pro(Crossover: 100hz). My speakers are Paradigm Mini Monitors, CC350 and PS1000. What would be the effect with the different crossovers as far as sound, imageing, etc.

    Thanks

    Kevin
     
  2. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    I think the effects will be quite minimal. If there's something in the processing of the Marantz that improves on the Denon in a meaningful way...I'd guess this would swamp any minute issue with your crossover point moving from 80 to 100hz.

    TV
     
  3. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    It may not be negative. But you won't know until you try it. With the crossover itself, here is what you have, 1) the possibilities 2) the probable and 3) the actual. Depending on your room, front speakers and subwoofer, it could improve or worsen the overall sound. I'd say it is more likely to worsen the sound, unless your front speakers currently only go to 100 hz as is and the 100 hz crossover would allow the fronts no to be cutting off anything. It is probably going to make it more likely that you localize your subwoofer. What it actually does do, is only something you will determine upon listening.

    What I don't know for sure, is what the crossover slopes are for the two units. I have a receiver with a 100 hz crossover, the SR 6200, and other problems not withstanding, the 100 hz crossover has not proven to be a problem yet. I have a flat sounding and non-boomy subwoofer, so my setup is not too bad. I would prefer a lower crossover of 60 to 80hz, myself.
     
  4. Mal P

    Mal P Stunt Coordinator

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    Speaking of cross-overs, does anyone know what it is exactly on the older Sony receivers? In particular the DA555ES? I'm told it's either 100hz or 120hz... has anyone done a frequency sweep just to make sure? I really wish Sony would document it.

    Sincerely,

    Mal
     
  5. Howard_S

    Howard_S Supporting Actor

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    Also like to add in my question. Should receiver crossover settings match your sub?
     
  6. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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    The rule of thumb is that you should,have an extra octave out put below the crossover point,so in order to use the the 100hz setting your speakers should reach around 50hz.Keep in mind that crossovers aren't "brickwall" filters,the lower ferquencies will reach the driver,albeit at lower level,depends on the crossover's slope.Most receivers and pre/pros use 2nd or 3rd order slopes on their high pass filters[12db/octave,18db/oct].Don't buy that it will sound worse,then the 80hz point,as Tom pointed out it should have very little effect on the overal sound.The only negative is that the sub "could get more localizable",since more "higher frquencies can reach it,but that's depends on many aother factor as well.
     
  7. Mal P

    Mal P Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks Louise. Given that my fronts hit -3dB at 31hz, what would the best cross-over be for it, if I were to buy a newer receiver? 60hz or 80hz?

    Cheers,

    Mal
     
  8. Kevin. W

    Kevin. W Screenwriter

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    Thanks for the input guys. Just want too make sure before I get the Marantz. One other thing I like about the Marantz is the RC-2000 MKII remote that will come with it also. ANyone have this remote like to comment on it?

    Kevin
     
  9. Scott Merryfield

    Scott Merryfield Executive Producer

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  10. BruceD

    BruceD Screenwriter

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    Some items to consider regarding crossovers:

    1) What are the current room mode peaks
     
  11. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  12. Drew Eckhardt

    Drew Eckhardt Stunt Coordinator

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    Your speakers having a claimed -3dB point at 31Hz doesn't mean that they get there

    1) In room. My mains are spec'd -3dB @ 30Hz, although the measured in-room -3dB point is closer to 40.

    2) With acceptable distortion. In my case, measured harmonic distortion is 10% at 30Hz and 5% at 50 @ 1W.

    3) At reasonable volumes. Lower cross-over frequencies make you more likely to run out of linear excursion (even below the cross-over point).

    Lower/shallower cross-overs can also make it impossible to equalize room-induced peaks that are below the cross-over point with an inexpensive parametric EQ on the sub channel because the (boosted) main output will still contribute most of the sound at those frequencies even after the sub is out of the equation.

    IOW, try it both ways. You might be surprised.
     
  13. Mal P

    Mal P Stunt Coordinator

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    Oops, sorry Lewis :b
    Hi Drew,
    My speakers are rated between 35hz-20khz at +/- 2dB (the graphs are shown here: http://www.vaf.com.au/catalog/products/dcx_spec.htm ).
    So you think that a lower cross-over on the receiver is not always better? Hmmm... I'll definately try various models and see what it's like. I wish I didn't have to upgrade my receiver though... all I need/want is DD/DTS.
    Sincerely,
    Mal
     
  14. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Measure your speakers in room response too. One thing that is almost impossible to do without going deaf (unless you use ear plugs and ear-phone type protection) or blowing up your speakers or amp and is measuring the in room freqency response of your speakers at or near their peak non-clipping level. I have measured the in-room frequency response of a couple of pairs of speakers. They were able to go much lower than their rated anaechoic specs. If you look into the effects of rooms on low frequencies, you will see why. There are standing waves, and some help. It depends on the size of the room. Either way I am pretty sure the speaker pairs I tested can't maintain the response I measured at the highest volume settings, not without gross distortions.

    My advice? Check your in room response. Try a crossover setting and check the in room response, AND listen to how it sounds also. Keep trying and testing/listening and you'll find what works best for you.
     
  15. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    I don't know what those speakers sound like, but the specs sure look promising. Good low end extension, high efficiency and flat response. Nice.
     
  16. Mal P

    Mal P Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi Chris,
    Rightio... must get one of them SPL meters and have a go with playing around. Thank you for all your advice.
    Yes, they are pretty good speakers [​IMG] Notice the dead straight phase response... 5 degrees. It takes special skill to achieve that, combined with such a high sensitivity. VAF have managed to do it by virtually eliminating the cross-over... it's just a transistor basically. The design of the speaker is based on the combination of good drivers and a time-aligned design (where the lower woofer is just a tad behind in emission as opposed to the top one). Why build a poor design and use a messy cross-over to fix it? Build it correctly from the start! VAF are (in mine, and many others opinion) the premier manufacturers of high quality speakers in Australia, and I really wish they'd export them to other countries...
    Cheers,
    Mal
     

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