4k…Okay, Now I Get It!

3 Stars

IMG_0620.

I had not planned on getting into 4k anytime soon — especially as a projector owner. Even though the format has been out for two years now, quality projector prices still remain somewhat unaffordable.

All that being said, my LG Plasma in my living room finally bit the bullet. Though this room was not set up or designed for home theater, it still remains the place where I do most of my everyday viewing. In fact, I generally do all my Home Theater posting while sitting in front of this display with a laptop on my knees.

So, what does one do when their 1080p plasma bites the dust? I am not going out and buying something cheap. That’s just not what I do. When it comes to flat panels, I want pretty much the best that money can buy.

I was pretty much forced to get a 4k display. I also knew that OLED would provide even deeper black levels than my plasma ever could. After much research, I decided upon the LG 65″ C8 OLED. Robert Zohn at Value Electronics had one shipped to my home.

It’s been a good 6 years or more since I have seen anything upwards of 1080 plasma. Seeing the picture on this new OLED display was quite a revelation. I have never seen black levels like this before. There is such a richness to this display even with 1080p content.

The real treat came when I hooked up my new Panasonic UB820 and watched my very first 4k disc.

What did I pick? I thought THE GREATEST SHOWMAN would be the perfect demo disc.

I have to be completely honest. I have seen demos of 4k at the studios and was only slightly blown away by what I was seeing. It was that reason why I just never had the passion to upgrade from 1080p. However, when I began watching the image that was coming out of my display, I just couldn’t take my eyes off of it.

The level of pinpoint sharpness is just off the charts. I always thought Blu-ray looked spectacular — and it does. However, 4k combined with Dolby Vision (if my display and 4k player are putting out DV as promised), is delivering an image that is just mind-boggling. It’s not just the improved sharpness or the detail. It’s the abundant luminance and color gamut.

I had always thought that the upgrade from 1080p to 4k would be minimal. I was wrong. This is almost as night and day as DVD was to Blu-ray — at least on this flat panel 65″ display. I still have a fear that I am not going to see that kind of improvement on a projected display. And, if I want to, I have a feeling that once projectors are available that can handle all these specs, they are going to be priced out of reach. For that reason, my basement home theater will remain 1080p.

I am one of the last handfuls of members on this forum to finally get into 4k. As I noted, it wasn’t really my intention. I completely sympathize with those members still holding on to their 1080p displays. It’s an expensive upgrade when you want to do it right. However, sooner or later the rest of you will also be dealing with failing equipment. When that happens, don’t be afraid to open your wallet and step up. As an initial naysayer, I am pretty damned impressed with what I watched this evening. The difference over 1080p is rather startling though maybe moreso for me because it is an OLED display and I believe it is pushing (as I did the updates) Dolby Vision.

Published by

Ronald Epstein

administrator

92 Comments

  1. Ronald Epstein
    View attachment 49126

    I am one of the last handfuls of members on this forum to finally get into 4k. As I noted, it wasn't really my intention. I completely sympathize with those members still holding on to their 1080p displays. It's an expensive upgrade when you want to do it right. However, sooner or later the rest of you will also be dealing with failing equipment. When that happens, don't be afraid to open your wallet and step up. As an initial naysayer, I am pretty damned impressed with what I watched this evening. The difference over 1080p is rather startling though maybe moreso for me because it is an OLED display and I believe it is pushing (as I did the updates) Dolby Vision.

    Ron,

    If you remember, I upgraded back in February, 2017 with the last 3-D OLED display that LG produced. I can never express how happy I've been with my display and the Dolby Atmos setup I have in my main HT setup. Like you, I was astounded by the huge difference between 1080p and 4K/UHD material. It's not quite as large of a difference as watching a DVD and then a Blu-ray, but it's much closer comparison than I initially believed. I'm happy for you and so glad you made the jump. By the way, I still think people such as us watching 4K/UHD material with 4K displays are in the minority of the membership. We're just a vocal minority!:)

  2. You are probably right about the fact that there are more members still without 4k and the vocal minority is ruling this forum.

    I am just really torn at this point. I would rather watch 4k than 1080p. However, I have to decide whether that means watching 4k in my living room with no surround or Dolby Atmos or in the basement with less resolution.

  3. Ronald Epstein

    You are probably right about the fact that there are more members still without 4k and the vocal minority is ruling this forum.

    I am just really torn at this point. I would rather watch 4k than 1080p. However, I have to decide whether that means watching 4k in my living room with no surround or Dolby Atmos or in the basement with less resolution.

    It depends on the movie, but for the most part I'm more of a visual person so the enhanced picture quality is more important to me.

  4. I have recently bought a Panny 65" OLED and it is the natural successor to plasma. However, good as it is, you don't get the same theatrical experience as when projecting a film and using a decent sound system. Obviously a 4k projector is the way to go but most of my favourite discs will remain 1080p so upgrading isn't a priority at present.

  5. Good to hear, Ron!

    You're not the last. I'm helping anchor down the late-upgraders. 🙂 My delay is simple: projection. If I hadn't spent big on my movie room in 2017, I'd be upgrading to 4K probably right now. But I'm not switching my now-secondary living room display to a brand new 4K set with a HD projector in a new movie room. So I'm waiting for when I can do everything at once. I know from a demo this Spring, that the PJ won't be as bright and HDR as the direct display, but that will be ok for me. Current UHD projectors are good enough.

    The other thing slowing me down is lack of 4K content…because I mostly watch "TV" (be it traditional network, cable, or streaming). Most of what I watch like "The Good Place", "The Expanse", "Stranger Things" is all HD. My movie-watching, what is readily available in UHD, is a much much smaller percent of time spent in front of my "big screen".

    I'm happy to hear you like 4K. It's another data point that it's a worthwhile upgrade when it's practical for my home budget.

  6. Ron, I upgraded to an OLED in early summer and completely echo your sentiments. While there's next to zero UHD content that interests me, I absolutely love how it upscales my Blu-rays. I don't watch films at home much in the summer, so I'm looking forward to getting a lot of use out of it this autumn and winter. I'm so pleased with my purchase.

  7. how far away are you all sitting? i’ve got 100” projector and the large screen is always better but even sitting super close to the hdr 50” no matter how good hdr is it still pales in comparison to the size

  8. DaveF

    My delay is simple: projection. If I hadn't spent big on my movie room in 2017, I'd be upgrading to 4K probably right now. But I'm not switching my now-secondary living room display to a brand new 4K set with a HD projector in a new movie room.

    Same here.

    My primary display device for movies is an HD projector. My secondary display, a plasma HD TV, just died, so I'm currently in that limbo of seeing if it can be repaired. If I have to replace it with a UHD set, I just don't see myself upgrading the entire infrastructure just to support that, so those capabilities may go unused for a while. There's just no way that a 50" TV (which is the size of the set that died and what I'd be looking to replace it with) could win over a 100" projection screen for me, even if the smaller TV had better resolution. So then the question is, does it make sense for me to upgrade my receiver and input components (buy a UHD player and upgrade to the AppleTV 4K version) when I won't be watching any of that UHD content on a device that can display UHD resolution. And I keep coming to the same conclusion – it's not.

    I just have zero interest in watching movies on a TV screen after becoming a projector owner. I'll take the larger screen size and lower resolution of an HD projector over a smaller UHD TV.

    If I have to get a UHD TV now, my best hope is just that regular SD and HD content looks okay on it, so that I can continue using it as if it were a regular HD screen.

    In a perfect world, I would like my HD projector to hold out for another few years.

    (I would probably be more enthused about a piecemeal upgrade if the UHD HDMI standards didn't require me to upgrade my receiver.)

  9. I can definitely understand projection owners being reluctant to enter into the 4K market right now. If I have a large projection screen, I would probably be in the same boat.

    My case was similar to Ron's — back in December 2016 my Samsung 67-inch DLP set developed a dead pixel issue. I didn't want anything smaller than that screen size, and OLED sets larger than 65 inches were prohibitively expensive. So I ended up with a 70 inch Vizio 4K LED display, and have been quite happy with the setup. Even my wife, who rarely notices anything related to picture or sound quality, commented that the picture quality of UHD discs looked better than BD films. It did lead to spending additional money on a UHD disc player, a new receiver, and a couple of 4K streaming boxes, though.

  10. Scott Merryfield

    It did lead to spending additional money on a UHD disc player, a new receiver, and a couple of 4K streaming boxes, though.

    The combined weight of that is what scares me. Each one of those things on their own might be absorbable into the budget, but not all of them at once. I just set up my home theater in 2014, so four years is much too short a time to replace everything on the budget I have for this. And I went into my home theater setup in 2014 knowing that UHD was around the corner, and that all of this could happen…

    …but at the same time, what else was I gonna do? Delaying the purchase of home theater equipment until the UHD rollout occurred in 2016, more than two years after my home theater purchasing opportunity first arose, was not a reasonable or realistic option either.

    I am, at the very least, very happy and relieved to hear that Ron is enjoying his UHD setup as much as he is, because I know that means that whenever I do make the plunge, whether it's in a couple months or a couple years, that I'll enjoy it.

  11. I can't wait for the day that I get to come back to this thread and make a report something similar to Ron's.

    But I've got my Panasonic 55" ST50 Plasma and think it's the bees knees.

    I'm not upgrading yet (even though I've got a 4k player and 4k receiver) because:

    1.) Budget

    2.) It is in perfect working order

    3.) I love it.

    Would I love the 65" OLED set (that is dancing in my dreams) even more?? For sure, most likely. But I just can't justify it until forced financially to do it.

    A post like Ron's just whet's my appetite even further (GREATLY!) for when that day comes. In the meantime, I hope this time of waiting allows prices to drop some.

    So I continue to buy new releases in 4k so that when that day comes, I'll be ready to jump right in…feet first!

    EDIT: I forgot to include that I already have an Apple 4kTV box, too.

  12. Josh Steinberg

    The combined weight of that is what scares me. Each one of those things on their own might be absorbable into the budget, but not all of them at once. I just set up my home theater in 2014, so four years is much too short a time to replace everything on the budget I have for this. And I went into my home theater setup in 2014 knowing that UHD was around the corner, and that all of this could happen…

    …but at the same time, what else was I gonna do? Delaying the purchase of home theater equipment until the UHD rollout occurred in 2016, more than two years after my home theater purchasing opportunity first arose, was not a reasonable or realistic option either.

    I am, at the very least, very happy and relieved to hear that Ron is enjoying his UHD setup as much as he is, because I know that means that whenever I do make the plunge, whether it's in a couple months or a couple years, that I'll enjoy it.

    In my case, I didn't buy the AVR, UHD disc player and 4K streamers all at once, so that helped ease the blow some. It was more of a long odyssey. I started with a Roku Ultra 4K streaming box, which was under $100. That model had a digital optical output, so it worked with my old Pioneer Elite receiver. I then picked up a Sony X-800 UHD player a few months later for about $270, and it included a few free UHD discs. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the Sony player to connect at all to my old AVR for audio-only via HDMI, as it had some HDMI handshake issues. So I was without high-resolution audio for awhile until I replaced the AVR with a new Denon X3300W during the model year closeout sales. I didn't add the Apple TV 4K streaming box until early this summer (used Amazon credits, so there was no out of pocket expense), and did that only because the Roku Ultra had been so unreliable due to Roku's poor software engineering — on 5 different occasions over 1.5 years new firmware releases would break something new on the device (it currently has an audio dropout issue with 5.1 audio).

    Of course, I'm still not completely done (are we ever? 😉 ), as I would like to upgrade to a UHD player with Dolby Vision support. I'm eyeing the same Panasonic UB820 that Ron just bought. Since I haven't been buying many UHD discs lately, though, that can wait for awhile.

  13. Ron, I think those who have upgraded to 4K are still the minority here.

    Like a lot of people, I'm taking it step by step. This year I upgraded to a 4K/DV/HDR/Atmos/DTS:X capable preamp, added a power amp that will get me to 7.1.4 and got a pair of up-firing Atmos speakers, just to see how well they work. Now I know I want to go in-ceiling for Atmos, which will probably be the next step. My plasma is roughly ten years old, and I know that once it dies, I'll be going OLED, which will hopefully be after I swing a UHD player, probably the UD820. But, the plasma dies when it dies.

  14. I’m happy for you Ron. For me, my 1080p 3D projector is the ultimate viewing experience. Like you, I also had a plasma panel die on me recently. I replaced it with the cheapest 55” 4K TV I could find, which was Samsung. So my big leap into 4K (via Apple TV 4K) was a big “meh” as I was unimpressed. I see only a marginal improvement, not night and day.

  15. B-ROLL

    I saw Costco had the 4K Roku Box for $89.99 …

    If you are going to buy just one 4K streamer, I would go for the Apple TV 4K instead. I have both the ATV4K and Roku Ultra 4K, and the Apple product is much more stable, plus iTunes has some great prices on 4K UHD films — plus, as mentioned above, the ATV4K supports Dolby Vision and the Roku products do not. And this is coming from someone who is not part of the Apple ecosystem (we have Win10 PCs and Android phones).

  16. Scott Merryfield

    If you are going to buy just one 4K streamer, I would go for the Apple TV 4K instead. I have both the ATV4K and Roku Ultra 4K, and the Apple product is much more stable, plus iTunes has some great prices on 4K UHD films — plus, as mentioned above, the ATV4K supports Dolby Vision and the Roku products do not. And this is coming from someone who is not part of the Apple ecosystem (we have Win10 PCs and Android phones).

    First thank you, all, for the good wishes.

    I have read all your replies with a big smile on my face.

    I have the Apple 4k TV on order due to arrive today. Was looking for 64GB, but Amazon only has 32GB at the moment. Doing some research I am finding that if I am only going to buy and stream HD content, that a 32GB model is more than enough.

    I would have gone Roku, but I am already deep in the Apple ecosystem. To be able to access photos on my television is a big plus.

    My TV already comes with Netflix and Amazon apps, so I am kind of looking at redundancy with the Apple TV — however I am sure that will be my "go to" source for all streaming content.

  17. Scott Merryfield

    If you are going to buy just one 4K streamer, I would go for the Apple TV 4K instead. I have both the ATV4K and Roku Ultra 4K, and the Apple product is much more stable, plus iTunes has some great prices on 4K UHD films — plus, as mentioned above, the ATV4K supports Dolby Vision and the Roku products do not. And this is coming from someone who is not part of the Apple ecosystem (we have Win10 PCs and Android phones).

    It's strange that I never experience the issues you did with your Roku Ultra 4K unit and I have Roku unit in all three of my HT setups. I also have ATV4K units at each HT setup too. I buy digital copies from Vudu and iTunes. One thing I noticed is that Disney movies are not in 4K/UHD and without Dolby Atmos on iTunes. However, many of those same Disney movies are 4K/UHD with Dolby Atmos on Vudu using the Roku 4K units. Furthermore, if you have the Vudu app. installed on iTunes, they playback in 4K/UHD with Dolby Atmos. The Vudu app. on iTunes allows you to watch your Vudu titles in your digital library on iTunes. However, you can't purchase titles with the Vudu app which you can purchase titles using a Roku unit. Some of those Disney titles I was talking about are the following:

    Thor: Ragnorok
    Black Panther
    CoCo
    Avengers Movies (all 3 titles)
    A Wrinkle in Time
    Guardians of the Galaxy 2
    Star Wars: The Last Jedi

  18. Ronald Epstein

    First thank you, all, for the good wishes.

    I have read all your replies with a big smile on my face.

    I have the Apple 4k TV on order due to arrive today. Was looking for 64GB, but Amazon only has 32GB at the moment. Doing some research I am finding that if I am only going to buy and stream HD content, that a 32GB model is more than enough.

    I would have gone Roku, but I am already deep in the Apple ecosystem. To be able to access photos on my television is a big plus.

    My TV already comes with Netflix and Amazon apps, so I am kind of looking at redundancy with the Apple TV — however I am sure that will be my "go to" source for all streaming content.

    Ron,

    My first ATV4K unit I purchased has 64GB. However, the other two ATV4K units I purchased a couple of months afterwards only have 32GB.

  19. Ronald Epstein

    My TV already comes with Netflix and Amazon apps, so I am kind of looking at redundancy with the Apple TV — however I am sure that will be my "go to" source for all streaming content.

    You can also add the Netflix and Amazon apps to your Apple TV which can make it easier knowing all of your streaming apps. are located in one single location.

  20. Thanks, Crawdaddy.

    Sad to see that streaming has become more preferential than physical media.

    I just rented my first movie from Amazon Prime this morning. And you know what? My selection has everything to do with what is happening to the film industry…

    All Things Must Pass: The Rise And Fall Of Tower Records

    Excellent documentary — especially as an individual who went into NYC on a monthly basis just to buy music from that store.

    Now I see the same demise of physical media happening to the film industry, though it seems, at a slower pace.

    But that's a discussion for another thread perhaps. I am just pointing out why I was so interested in watching this doc. I highly recommend a viewing of it.

  21. While the 4K UHD aspects of my LG set are nice, the thing I am really missing on the thing is the 3D function which is why I upgraded from my plasma in the first place. However, congratulations on your upgrade as, yes, the black level and colour improvement were the other things that impressed me about the LG OLED set.

  22. Edwin-S

    While the 4K UHD aspects of my LG set are nice, the thing I am really missing on the thing is the 3D function which is why I upgraded from my plasma in the first place. However, congratulations on your upgrade as, yes, the black level and colour improvement were the other things that impressed me about the LG OLED set.

    It's not going to be long, when many more of us will be missing out on 3-D except those with projection setups.

  23. Robert Crawford

    It's not going to be long, when many more of us will be missing out on 3-D except those with projection setups.

    Yes, unfortunately, the time will come; however, here is to hoping that it doesn't happen for a good long while for you and others that still have the function. Once it does a person is going to seriously miss it, unless one makes the jump to projection. I have my old Samsung D550 for 3D but I hardly ever use it for that because it just isn't the same. I just got spoiled by the sweet 3D quality that my original LG OLED had.

    However, after being forced to make the jump, it's great that Ron is happy and impressed with his new set. The blacks and the colour really do blow a person away when one first switches on an OLED set. Sure, they look good in the store too, but a person really has to try one in the comfort of their own home theatre set up to really appreciate the improvement in PQ.

  24. Ronald Epstein

    First thank you, all, for the good wishes.

    I have read all your replies with a big smile on my face.

    I have the Apple 4k TV on order due to arrive today. Was looking for 64GB, but Amazon only has 32GB at the moment. Doing some research I am finding that if I am only going to buy and stream HD content, that a 32GB model is more than enough.

    I would have gone Roku, but I am already deep in the Apple ecosystem. To be able to access photos on my television is a big plus.

    My TV already comes with Netflix and Amazon apps, so I am kind of looking at redundancy with the Apple TV — however I am sure that will be my "go to" source for all streaming content.

    Ron,

    The only downside to using Amazon Prime on the ATV4K instead of via Roku is that most of the titles stream with stereo audio on the Apple. For example, the new Jack Ryan series is in stereo via Apple, but is DD+ 5.1 on Roku.

    You should be fine with the 32GB version of the device — that's what I have, and storage hasn't been an issue at all. I doubt you'll want to use the built-in apps on your LG display after using a dedicated streamer. My Vizio has dedicated apps, too, but I never use them.

    Robert Crawford

    It's strange that I never experience the issues you did with your Roku Ultra 4K unit and I have Roku unit in all three of my HT setups. I also have ATV4K units at each HT setup too. I buy digital copies from Vudu and iTunes. One thing I noticed is that several Disney movies are not in 4K/UHD and without Dolby Atmos on iTunes. However, many of those same Disney movies are 4K/UHD with Dolby Atmos on Vudu using the Roku 4K units. Furthermore, if you have the Vudu app. installed on iTunes, they playback in 4K/UHD with Dolby Atmos. The Vudu app. on iTunes allows you to watch your Vudu titles in your digital library on iTunes. However, you can't purchase titles with the Vudu app which you can purchase titles using a Roku unit. Some of those Disney titles I was talking about are the following:

    Thor: Ragnorok
    Black Panther
    CoCo
    Avengers Movies (all 3 titles)
    A Wrinkle in Time
    Guardians of the Galaxy 2
    Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    The Roku Ultra issues seem to be hit or miss as to who gets them. However, if you check out the Roku Ultra threads at AVS and Reddit, you will see there are quite a few people who have gone through the same experience I have. I used my Ultra the past couple of evenings to watch the Jack Ryan series on Amazon due to the better audio, and it got through the first two episodes without any issues. It's the first time I have used the unit since late July, though, and back then I would randomly suffer through severe audio dropouts. Since there has been no firmware upgrade since then, I fully expect the dropouts to begin again (this happened when I watched the 2nd season of The Expanse, too, getting through 2-3 episodes before the dropouts started again). Roku's software engineering group has the worst quality control I've seen for a company.

    As for no UHD for Disney titles on iTunes, that is because Di$ney will not supply any 4K/UHD transfers to Apple due to Apple's aggressive pricing on 4K/UHD (charging the same price as HDX). It's similar to the battle Di$ney is having with Amazon over pricing.

    Ronald Epstein

    Robert,

    I receive my 4k ATV today. If I install the public beta it will have DV support?

    Ron, you do not need the beta software in order to get Dolby Vision support. I am running the general release software and have full Dolby Vision support with the ATV4K. Since my Roku Ultra has been so unreliable and I have no Atmos height speakers in my setup, I didn't want to gamble on running beta software on the Apple.

  25. Robert Crawford

    It's not going to be long, when many more of us will be missing out on 3-D except those with projection setups.

    Yes, I'm dreading that day though I know it's coming for me if I live long enough. My plasma TV that the OLED replaced still has functioning 3D, but after the OLED 3D experience, I don't want to go back to active presentation unless I have to.

  26. Ronald Epstein
    View attachment 49126

    I had not planned on getting into 4k anytime soon — especially as a projector owner. Even though the format has been out for two years now, quality projector prices still remain somewhat unaffordable.

    All that being said, my LG Plasma in my living room finally bit the bullet. Though this room was not set up or designed for home theater, it still remains the place where I do most of my everyday viewing. In fact, I generally do all my Home Theater posting while sitting in front of this display with a laptop on my knees.

    So, what does one do when their 1080p plasma bites the dust? I am not going out and buying something cheap. That's just not what I do. When it comes to flat panels, I want pretty much the best that money can buy.

    I was pretty much forced to get a 4k display. I also knew that OLED would provide even deeper black levels than my plasma ever could. After much research, I decided upon the LG 65" C8 OLED. Robert Zohn at Value Electronics had one shipped to my home.

    It's been a good 6 years or more since I have seen anything upwards of 1080 plasma. Seeing the picture on this new OLED display was quite a revelation. I have never seen black levels like this before. There is such a richness to this display even with 1080p content.

    The real treat came when I hooked up my new Panasonic UB820 and watched my very first 4k disc.

    What did I pick? I thought THE GREATEST SHOWMAN would be the perfect demo disc.

    I have to be completely honest. I have seen demos of 4k at the studios and was only slightly blown away by what I was seeing. It was that reason why I just never had the passion to upgrade from 1080p. However, when I began watching the image that was coming out of my display, I just couldn't take my eyes off of it.

    The level of pinpoint sharpness is just off the charts. I always thought Blu-ray looked spectacular — and it does. However, 4k combined with Dolby Vision (if my display and 4k player are putting out DV as promised), is delivering an image that is just mind-boggling. It's not just the improved sharpness or the detail. It's the abundant luminance and color gamut.

    I had always thought that the upgrade from 1080p to 4k would be minimal. I was wrong. This is almost as night and day as DVD was to Blu-ray — at least on this flat panel 65" display. I still have a fear that I am not going to see that kind of improvement on a projected display. And, if I want to, I have a feeling that once projectors are available that can handle all these specs, they are going to be priced out of reach. For that reason, my basement home theater will remain 1080p.

    I am one of the last handfuls of members on this forum to finally get into 4k. As I noted, it wasn't really my intention. I completely sympathize with those members still holding on to their 1080p displays. It's an expensive upgrade when you want to do it right. However, sooner or later the rest of you will also be dealing with failing equipment. When that happens, don't be afraid to open your wallet and step up. As an initial naysayer, I am pretty damned impressed with what I watched this evening. The difference over 1080p is rather startling though maybe moreso for me because it is an OLED display and I believe it is pushing (as I did the updates) Dolby Vision.

    As many others have said, welcome to the clan. Ron, if you really want to get blown away, get the 4K Version of VanHelsing, it is stunning, at least IMHO.

  27. Robert Crawford

    One thing I noticed is that several Disney movies are not in 4K/UHD and without Dolby Atmos on iTunes. However, many of those same Disney movies are 4K/UHD with Dolby Atmos on Vudu using the Roku 4K units. Furthermore, if you have the Vudu app. installed on iTunes, they playback in 4K/UHD with Dolby Atmos. The Vudu app. on iTunes allows you to watch your Vudu titles in your digital library on iTunes. However, you can't purchase titles with the Vudu app which you can purchase titles using a Roku unit. Some of those Disney titles I was talking about are the following:

    Thor: Ragnorok
    Black Panther
    CoCo
    Avengers Movies (all 3 titles)
    A Wrinkle in Time
    Guardians of the Galaxy 2
    Star Wars: The Last Jedi

    As far as I know Disney has no 4K content on iTunes. They objected to offering 4k for the same price as 1080p.

  28. Wayne_j

    As far as I know Disney has no 4K content on iTunes. They objected to offering 4k for the same price as 1080p.

    Yeah, I already know that, but the point I'm making is that using the Vudu app on iTunes, you can view whatever movies Disney has in 4K/UHD with Vudu on iTunes with Dolby Atmos.

  29. Robert Crawford

    Yeah, I already know that, but the point I'm making is that using the Vudu app on iTunes, you can view whatever movies Disney has in 4K/UHD with Vudu on iTunes with Dolby Atmos.

    I would not be surprised at all to see a big show of Disney in 4K at the Keynote on the 12th. Fingers crossed

  30. Sam Posten

    I would not be surprised at all to see a big show of Disney in 4K at the Keynote on the 12th. Fingers crossed

    I would be very surprised. Disney and Apple have been at a stalemate on this issue. Disney does not want previous purchases magically upgraded to 4K. They want everyone to have to repurchase everything in 4K. Meanwhile Apple wants to stand by their pledge that all previous HD purchases get upgraded to 4K for free whenever the 4K version debuts on the platform.

  31. Ronald Epstein
    View attachment 49126

    I had not planned on getting into 4k anytime soon — especially as a projector owner. Even though the format has been out for two years now, quality projector prices still remain somewhat unaffordable.

    All that being said, my LG Plasma in my living room finally bit the bullet. Though this room was not set up or designed for home theater, it still remains the place where I do most of my everyday viewing. In fact, I generally do all my Home Theater posting while sitting in front of this display with a laptop on my knees.

    So, what does one do when their 1080p plasma bites the dust? I am not going out and buying something cheap. That's just not what I do. When it comes to flat panels, I want pretty much the best that money can buy.

    I was pretty much forced to get a 4k display. I also knew that OLED would provide even deeper black levels than my plasma ever could. After much research, I decided upon the LG 65" C8 OLED. Robert Zohn at Value Electronics had one shipped to my home.

    It's been a good 6 years or more since I have seen anything upwards of 1080 plasma. Seeing the picture on this new OLED display was quite a revelation. I have never seen black levels like this before. There is such a richness to this display even with 1080p content.

    The real treat came when I hooked up my new Panasonic UB820 and watched my very first 4k disc.

    What did I pick? I thought THE GREATEST SHOWMAN would be the perfect demo disc.

    I have to be completely honest. I have seen demos of 4k at the studios and was only slightly blown away by what I was seeing. It was that reason why I just never had the passion to upgrade from 1080p. However, when I began watching the image that was coming out of my display, I just couldn't take my eyes off of it.

    The level of pinpoint sharpness is just off the charts. I always thought Blu-ray looked spectacular — and it does. However, 4k combined with Dolby Vision (if my display and 4k player are putting out DV as promised), is delivering an image that is just mind-boggling. It's not just the improved sharpness or the detail. It's the abundant luminance and color gamut.

    I had always thought that the upgrade from 1080p to 4k would be minimal. I was wrong. This is almost as night and day as DVD was to Blu-ray — at least on this flat panel 65" display. I still have a fear that I am not going to see that kind of improvement on a projected display. And, if I want to, I have a feeling that once projectors are available that can handle all these specs, they are going to be priced out of reach. For that reason, my basement home theater will remain 1080p.

    I am one of the last handfuls of members on this forum to finally get into 4k. As I noted, it wasn't really my intention. I completely sympathize with those members still holding on to their 1080p displays. It's an expensive upgrade when you want to do it right. However, sooner or later the rest of you will also be dealing with failing equipment. When that happens, don't be afraid to open your wallet and step up. As an initial naysayer, I am pretty damned impressed with what I watched this evening. The difference over 1080p is rather startling though maybe moreso for me because it is an OLED display and I believe it is pushing (as I did the updates) Dolby Vision.

    I am not a projector owner. But I do own a high-end Panasonic Plasma that I am deeply enamored with. I to am holding out for a 4k OLED display of at least 65". But it is slightly beyond my affordability range today. Maybe another year…

  32. Robert Crawford

    Ron,

    If you remember, I upgraded back in February, 2017 with the last 3-D OLED display that LG produced. I can never express how happy I've been with my display and the Dolby Atmos setup I have in my main HT setup. Like you, I was astounded by the huge difference between 1080p and 4K/UHD material. It's not quite as large of a difference as watching a DVD and then a Blu-ray, but it's much closer comparison than I initially believed. I'm happy for you and so glad you made the jump. By the way, I still think people such as us watching 4K/UHD material with 4K displays are in the minority of the membership. We're just a vocal minority!:)

    What was the model number on that 3D OLED?

  33. Richard V

    As many others have said, welcome to the clan. Ron, if you really want to get blown away, get the 4K Version of VanHelsing, it is stunning, at least IMHO.

    It's a shame the movie itself (not look) was so darn lousy. I saw it in the theaters when it came out and saw it streaming on Netflix recently. I wanted to revisit it and I couldn't make it more than 30 minutes before I shut it off.

  34. I can completely sympathize with projector owners clinging onto 1080p. For real 4K you have to go north of 5 digits–anything else is simulated in ways that have their drawbacks–and I believe HDR is still a pipe dream for affordable projectors.

    But if you are on an emissive display and have the funds, there's no excuse not to upgrade to 4K. The combination of higher resolution and strikingly higher dynamic range is stunning on the best 4K discs, not to mention that studios are increasingly reserving Dolby Atmos for their 4K releases and leaving it off of their 1080p releases.

  35. Ronald Epstein

    You are probably right about the fact that there are more members still without 4k and the vocal minority is ruling this forum.

    I am just really torn at this point. I would rather watch 4k than 1080p. However, I have to decide whether that means watching 4k in my living room with no surround or Dolby Atmos or in the basement with less resolution.

    Congratulations, Ronald; what I wouldn't give to be as torn by such options.:)

  36. Ronald Epstein
    After much research, I decided upon the LG 65" C8 OLED. Robert Zohn at Value Electronics had one shipped to my home.​
    Robert Crawford

    If you remember, I upgraded back in February, 2017 with the last 3-D OLED display that LG produced.

    Scott Merryfield

    You are one of us! You are one of us! 🙂

    Keith Cobby

    I have recently bought a Panny 65" OLED…

    Matt Hough

    I haven't regretted one penny that I've spent on my UHD set-up.

    Neil Middlemiss

    “Welcome to the party, Pal”

    Andrew Budgell

    Ron, I upgraded to an OLED in early summer and completely echo your sentiments.

    Tino

    Welcome to the OLED club Ron!:thumbsup:

    dpippel

    Welcome to the Collective Ron!!

    Mike2001

    :):) Welcome to the club.

    Jealous, jealous, jealous.
    One day, my friends, one day.:cool:

  37. Personally, I am a bit afraid to upgrade. Seems whenever I up my system to something new, all the manufacturers announce their new latest and greatest upgrades and new formats.

    So Ill take one for the team and all of you with 4K, and hold off on an upgrade to my theatre for now so you all don't become obsolete over night! 🙂

    And because, well, my 1080p 3D projector still works well, most of my content is not 4k yet, my budget is not ready for that big a hit. When 16k or 32k (what every comes next) hits the market, that is when I will buy a 4K projector (since the prices will drop.) And my ageing eyes probably won't be able to tell much difference after that!

  38. OwenRubin

    Personally, I am a bit afraid to upgrade. Seems whenever I up my system to something new, all the manufacturers announce their new latest and greatest upgrades and new formats.

    The first rule of technology shopping: The best time to buy is always tomorrow.

  39. Ron et al, hate to be that guy, but what you’re responding to isn’t the 4K resolution, which, unless you’re sitting very close to a very large TV isn’t that noticeable over 1080p (think 720p v. 1080p), but rather the High Dynamic Range (HDR) and Wide Color Gamut (WCG) afforded most 4K programming. And, of course, the brilliant blacks of the LG OLED. So the real game-changer isn’t 4K but rather HDR and WCG, the latter producing 46% (DCI-P3 color gamut )/67% (Rec.2020 gamut) of the colors the human eye can see v. the 34% afforded us by the Blu-ray standard (Rec.709 gamut). Lucky for us, 4K just happens to be vessel in which both are embedded. Not that the additional resolution isn’t appreciated, but again, the real difference makers are the improved dynamic range of the HDR10/Dolby Vision metadata and more accurate/poppier colors of the BT.2020 color space (which, in reality, is more like the DCI-P3 color space until TVs are able to produce more colors, still a ways off.) Enjoy the wonderful pictures. Once you’ve seen a 4K HDR10/Dolby Vision encoded image, Standard Dynamic Range (SDR) is a big, fat bummer.

  40. i've said this before, but i think i would have been happy w/2k+HDR.

    but this focus on 4k/8k/etc. sets a terrible precedence for consumers. what *SHOULD* have happened is to highlight (pun intended) and focus in on what HDR can do for your display and how much more awesome that is than traditional non-HDR.

    but so far… all the mass marketing has 0 clue on how to sell that for avg joes.

    it's kind of sad..

    JWC1969

    Ron et al, hate to be that guy, but what you're responding to isn't the 4K resolution, which, unless you're sitting very close to a very large TV isn't that noticeable over 1080p (think 720p v. 1080p), but rather the High Dynamic Range (HDR) and Wide Color Gamut (WCG) afforded most 4K programming. And, of course, the brilliant blacks of the LG OLED. So the real game-changer isn't 4K but rather HDR and WCG, the latter producing 46% (DCI-P3 color gamut )/67% (Rec.2020 gamut) of the colors the human eye can see v. the 34% afforded us by the Blu-ray standard (Rec.709 gamut). Lucky for us, 4K just happens to be vessel in which both are embedded. Not that the additional resolution isn't appreciated, but again, the real difference makers are the improved dynamic range of the HDR10/Dolby Vision metadata and more accurate/poppier colors of the BT.2020 color space (which, in reality, is more like the DCI-P3 color space until TVs are able to produce more colors, still a ways off.) Enjoy the wonderful pictures. Once you've seen a 4K HDR10/Dolby Vision encoded image, Standard Dynamic Range (SDR) is a big, fat bummer.

  41. i think most of them still dunno what 1080p from a technical perspective except "it's the best thing evah".

    most people upgrade when their old TV dies or they want a larger size, through attrition.

    it's the same w/older LCD->newer TVs. once old TV is dead or 'too small', then they replace it with whatever is on sale, which was (depending on time/generation) 720, 1080p, 4k and now 8k.

    folks could care less about what rez it is as long as it's cheap and they can afford it.

    JQuintana

    I don't think 99% of the average TV buyers even know what HDR is, let alone what it does.

    All they want to see on the TV box is "4K" and maybe "UHD"

  42. This is probably most directed to Ron Epstein but anyone can chime in.

    I am a huge fan of 3d and especially 3d in the home. I currently own a benq w1070, a great affordable 3d 1080p projector but recently upgraded to a 4k, dolby atmos etc. capable yamaha receiver and have been toying with an upgrade to 4k on the projector front. There are 3d capable 4k projectors that are quite reasonably priced but I am gathering from above comments that what really matters is not the 4K per se but the HDR and WCG. It also sounds like maybe the lower end 4k projectors may not have HDR and WCG capacity but I am not sure of that.

    I know Ron is (was??) big into 3d and I am curious if the loss of 3d capabilities played into the decision of moving to 4k at all?

    Is the move to 4k worth losing the ability to do 3d? I don’t have the luxury of having 2 different set ups so if I were to move to 4k it would be via a projector upgrade. However, I am thinking I may need to lose 3d in order to get affordable HDR and WCG in a projector. Is that a reasonable assumption?

    Glad you are happy with your new set up Ron!

    Regards,

    Kip

  43. https://www.projectorreviews.com/projector-reports/the-2018-best-home-theater-projectors-report/
    ^look at the $1000+ some of the mid-range 'faux k` (DLP pixel shifted 4k) projectors will do 4k HDR AND 3D

    however… some of the newer 4k announced that will do better HDR:
    https://www.projectorreviews.com/articles-guides/epson-pro-cinema-4050-announced-at-cedia-2018/

    https://www.projectorreviews.com/articles-guides/jvc-dla-n5-dla-n7-and-dla-nx9-launch-at-cedia-2018/

    but none of those have 3D… except Sony apparently:
    https://www.projectorreviews.com/ar…tors-vpl-vw295es-vpl-vw695es-and-vpl-vw995es/

    but again… all those things are $!

    Dave>h

    This is probably most directed to Ron Epstein but anyone can chime in.

    I am a huge fan of 3d and especially 3d in the home. I currently own a benq w1070, a great affordable 3d 1080p projector but recently upgraded to a 4k, dolby atmos etc. capable yamaha receiver and have been toying with an upgrade to 4k on the projector front. There are 3d capable 4k projectors that are quite reasonably priced but I am gathering from above comments that what really matters is not the 4K per se but the HDR and WCG. It also sounds like maybe the lower end 4k projectors may not have HDR and WCG capacity but I am not sure of that.

    I know Ron is (was??) big into 3d and I am curious if the loss of 3d capabilities played into the decision of moving to 4k at all?

    Is the move to 4k worth losing the ability to do 3d? I don't have the luxury of having 2 different set ups so if I were to move to 4k it would be via a projector upgrade. However, I am thinking I may need to lose 3d in order to get affordable HDR and WCG in a projector. Is that a reasonable assumption?

    Glad you are happy with your new set up Ron!

    Regards,

    Kip

  44. Congratulations on your first 4K display and welcome to the 4K club.

    I love my 4K display even though it is not HDR/Dobly Vision I am still amazed by the picture. But I am seriously considering getting a new Sony OLED with HDR & Dolby Vision.

  45. Finally got a 4k UHD player, a Sony to go with our 4K Hisense Television. Not hi tech but it does the job. Had to get a new sound system, so we ended up with the Logitech Z906 THX system. Not an Atmos but it does the job for us on a budget. I am loving 4K, but I also agree, not every film needs to be a 4K UHD.

  46. Ronald Epstein
    I am one of the last handfuls of members on this forum to finally get into 4k. As I noted, it wasn't really my intention. I completely sympathize with those members still holding on to their 1080p displays. It's an expensive upgrade when you want to do it right. However, sooner or later the rest of you will also be dealing with failing equipment. When that happens, don't be afraid to open your wallet and step up.​

    Congratulations on the upgrade.

    I am one of those holdouts and a question I'd like to ask you is how do your old DVDs look on this new display? The reason I ask is that my movie collection is probably quite different than that of the average HTF member.

    I currently have 2379 films in my home video collection, 1742 of which are black & white films released before 1960, and over 1400 of those are not available even on Blu-ray, much less 4K. What could I expect most of these DVDs to look like in the event my seven year old DLP television dies and I have to make the same decision you did?

    —————

  47. It depends on the authoring of the original DVDs. Many of my favorite films haven't made the transition to Blu-ray, but if some expert hands were present when the films were authored for DVD, they hold up quite well on a TV (projection might be less appealing). On my 65" OLED, most studio releases still look very watchable without a lot of distracting artifacts. They certainly look superior to standard definition cable broadcasts which I find soft and rather a chore to watch so I try to avoid them whenever possible.

  48. dont have 4k/hdr but as someone who loves b&w classics like you one of the things i noticed when i have chances to view 4k hdr using older sd b&w content is things will be darker/brighter. the dynamic range of light/dark is greatly increased. u can also bring it into stores to demo if you wish. is it night/day compared to what you have? probably not. the biggest thing to me about 4k hdr is how it doesnt matter as much as size. so to me a brighter projector to 100” screen does it for me vs smaller 4k hdr displays

    ScottHM

    Congratulations on the upgrade.

    I am one of those holdouts and a question I'd like to ask you is how do your old DVDs look on this new display? The reason I ask is that my movie collection is probably quite different than that of the average HTF member.

    I currently have 2379 films in my home video collection, 1742 of which are black & white films released before 1960, and over 1400 of those are not available even on Blu-ray, much less 4K. What could I expect most of these DVDs to look like in the event my seven year old DLP television dies and I have to make the same decision you did?

    —————

  49. Matt Hough

    On my 65" OLED, most studio releases still look very watchable without a lot of distracting artifacts.

    That's good to hear. My major concern with an eventual "upgrade" to 4K has been that my existing DVD collection will look worse on a 4K TV than on my current television, which is a 73" DLP set on which most of my DVDs look very good.

    —————

  50. Matt Hough

    It depends on the authoring of the original DVDs. Many of my favorite films haven't made the transition to Blu-ray, but if some expert hands were present when the films were authored for DVD, they hold up quite well on a TV (projection might be less appealing). On my 65" OLED, most studio releases still look very watchable without a lot of distracting artifacts. They certainly look superior to standard definition cable broadcasts which I find soft and rather a chore to watch so I try to avoid them whenever possible.

    I had the same experience as Matt.

  51. Robert Zohn will have Mr. Epstein to thank on other future occasions, as well;
    as it was Ronald who first alerted me to Robert's excellence, when first I joined HTF.
    Thanks for both the guidance and the goal; as excellence is always well worth the journey.

  52. Dave>h

    This is probably most directed to Ron Epstein but anyone can chime in.

    I am a huge fan of 3d and especially 3d in the home. I currently own a benq w1070, a great affordable 3d 1080p projector but recently upgraded to a 4k, dolby atmos etc. capable yamaha receiver and have been toying with an upgrade to 4k on the projector front. There are 3d capable 4k projectors that are quite reasonably priced but I am gathering from above comments that what really matters is not the 4K per se but the HDR and WCG. It also sounds like maybe the lower end 4k projectors may not have HDR and WCG capacity but I am not sure of that.

    I know Ron is (was??) big into 3d and I am curious if the loss of 3d capabilities played into the decision of moving to 4k at all?

    Is the move to 4k worth losing the ability to do 3d? I don't have the luxury of having 2 different set ups so if I were to move to 4k it would be via a projector upgrade. However, I am thinking I may need to lose 3d in order to get affordable HDR and WCG in a projector. Is that a reasonable assumption?

    Glad you are happy with your new set up Ron!

    Regards,

    Kip

    I don’t know what range you personally consider affordable, but JVC is dropping the MSRP on the RS540 to $3,999 (was $5,999). The JVC projectors are excellent at 3D. This line is not native 4K, as it uses their pixel-shifting “Eshift” technology, which effectively displays about halfway between “HD” and “4K”. It does a great job with 4K material and has fantastic native contrast (130,000:1 native). It also can do 100% of the DCI-P3 color space of UHD. It handles HDR ok on its own, but you’d get better HDR from the new Panasonic UB820 taking advantage of its tone mapping (which will automatically optimize based on the disc’s meta data). I wouldn’t be surprised to find street pricing around $3,500 or less, which is a phenomenal price for this level of projector.

    The price drop happened because JVC is launching their NATIVE 4K projectors this fall. The RS1000 entry model for that line is $5,999 MSRP. So native 4K, WCG, HDR (the new line has an auto tone mapping feature supposedly similar to the Panasonic UB820 player) 1800 lumens with 40,000:1 native on/off contrast ratio (400,00:1 dynamic contrast) at a street price of probably around or below $5,500.

    Their RS2000 midrange native 4K offers 80,000:1 native contrast (800,000:1 dynamic) with 1900 lumens at an MSRP of $7999, and the big boy RS3000 features the same amazing lens from their laser projector, 100,000:1 native contrast (1,000,000:1 dynamic) and 2200 lumens for a whopping $17,999! The difference in price between between the $8k RS2000 and the $18K RS3000 is mainly due to the quality of the lens. The only other projector with this lens is their $35,000 laser projector.

    All, of course, handle 3D very well.

  53. Sam Posten

    I would not be surprised at all to see a big show of Disney in 4K at the Keynote on the 12th. Fingers crossed

    Mark-P

    I would be very surprised. Disney and Apple have been at a stalemate on this issue. Disney does not want previous purchases magically upgraded to 4K. They want everyone to have to repurchase everything in 4K. Meanwhile Apple wants to stand by their pledge that all previous HD purchases get upgraded to 4K for free whenever the 4K version debuts on the platform.

    Sam Posten

    We will see!

    Okay Sam, I don't have the time or interest to sit through the nearly 2 hour keynote address. Did Apple announce Disney 4K or not?

  54. ScottHM

    That's good to hear. My major concern with an eventual "upgrade" to 4K has been that my existing DVD collection will look worse on a 4K TV than on my current television, which is a 73" DLP set on which most of my DVDs look very good.

    —————

    I went from a 67-inch DLP set to a 70-inch 4K LED display, and also am a fan of older films. If your DVD looked acceptable on your DLP, it should look at least as good on a 4K display. If not, then either your disc player or display isn't doing its job properly. The Sony 4k UHD player I am using to upconvert DVDs to 4K does an excellent job, as long as the DVD has a quality transfer. Nothing is going to turn a lousy DVD transfer into something beautiful, though.

  55. Scott Merryfield

    If your DVD looked acceptable on your DLP, it should look at least as good on a 4K display.

    That's reassuring. I've never seen a DVD played on a 4K screen so wasn't really sure what to expect. Thanks.

    —————

  56. I remember I was worried about that, too, before I got my OLED. So many of my favorite films (particularly from the 1930s and 1940s) haven't been upgraded from DVD, and the thought of not wanting to see them any more due to poor presentation filled me with dread. I was pleasantly relieved how good almost all of my favorites looked.

  57. Definitely depends on how good the player and/or display is at upscaling.

    In my office setup, DVDs look horrible when upscaled to 1080p on my Panasonic DMP-BD60 Blu-ray player, but most look much better when upscaled to 2160p on my Sony BDP-X800, both outputting to my 4K UHD Sony TV.

  58. It's funny Ron, my old 1080p LCD died this past August, and after some research I also purchased the 65" LG C8. Right away the superb blacks and off-axis viewing were a huge welcome. And I started getting some 4K discs and was initially impressed. I then had a professional calibration done. But it was because of that calibration (which was done by a pro who knew his stuff, but showed inherent issues with calibrating HDR/DV), that I started to dig deeper into things. And the more I dug, the more I realized that 4K UHD is all over the place and not worth chasing. Whatever standards exist cannot be properly implemented on consumer displays. And each display behaves differently with how they try to implement the standards. For example, no consumer display can display the correct colors of the wider color gamut, no consumer display can do 4000nits (or even 1000 properly), and no consumer display can do a proper tone mapping of the EOTF curve. I can go on an on, and it's just issue after issue. And the more you know, the more you will be disappointed. At the end of the day, 4K UHD discs, whether HDR or DV, are a crap shoot. They look different on different displays, and no display can be calibrated for HDR or DV (which is why any 4K UHD review is not very meaningful). That's just the truth, and it's sad. 4K without HDR/DV would be nice, but it exists on only a handful of discs (50 to be more precise). The uptick in resolution, when done properly, is a big thing, but the HDR/DV eye-candy stuff attached with it is what markets 4K – not the resolution. So the reality is that when you watch 4K content, you have no idea how it was intended to look by the creators, because your display is consumer and not a $30,000 studio mastering monitor. And again, an LG will look different from a Sony, from a Panasonic, or even from prior year LG. And nobody will agree (or even can agree) which is the correct one (answer is none :). So after looking more and more into this, I just gave up because I realized I would never get an accurate image from a 4K UHD/HDR/DV disc, stream, etc. So I focused on how to get the best 1080p image I could, because every display out there can reproduce the color gamut of REC.709 and the peak white of 100nits at which 1080p films are mastered. So I know I'm seeing exactly what was indented by the creators. Especially after calibrating with a 3D LUT – what Hollywood studios use. But I do get to keep the nice blacks of OLED, the off-axis viewing of OLED, and the great 4K upscaling of 1080p material. So for me, a new 4K display IS worth it, but not to watch native 4K UHD material if that makes sense. This post may sound strange, and I can go into details, but it's just how things are.

  59. i tend to think 4k, 8k, xk resolution is the marketing gimmick…

    *NOT* HDR. if anything (like you've researched) it is too confusing so the customer stays away.

    which why CE mfr never learn, stay away for multiple standards, just use one and customers will be happy.

    HDR10, HDR10+, HLG, DV, avg joe doesn't really care, it just has to work.

    but because of the complexity, they stay away from it altogether.

    ghostwind

    It's funny Ron, my old 1080p LCD died this past August, and after some research I also purchased the 65" LG C8. Right away the superb blacks and off-axis viewing were a huge welcome. And I started getting some 4K discs and was initially impressed. I then had a professional calibration done. But it was because of that calibration (which was done by a pro who knew his stuff, but showed inherent issues with calibrating HDR/DV), that I started to dig deeper into things. And the more I dug, the more I realized that 4K UHD is all over the place and not worth chasing. Whatever standards exist cannot be properly implemented on consumer displays. And each display behaves differently with how they try to implement the standards. For example, no consumer display can display the correct colors of the wider color gamut, no consumer display can do 4000nits (or even 1000 properly), and no consumer display can do a proper tone mapping of the EOTF curve. I can go on an on, and it's just issue after issue. And the more you know, the more you will be disappointed. At the end of the day, 4K UHD discs, whether HDR or DV, are a crap shoot. They look different on different displays, and no display can be calibrated for HDR or DV (which is why any 4K UHD review is not very meaningful). That's just the truth, and it's sad. 4K without HDR/DV would be nice, but it exists on only a handful of discs (50 to be more precise). The uptick in resolution, when done properly, is a big thing, but the HDR/DV eye-candy stuff attached with it is what markets 4K – not the resolution. So the reality is that when you watch 4K content, you have no idea how it was intended to look by the creators, because your display is consumer and not a $30,000 studio mastering monitor. And again, an LG will look different from a Sony, from a Panasonic, or even from prior year LG. And nobody will agree (or even can agree) which is the correct one (answer is none :). So after looking more and more into this, I just gave up because I realized I would never get an accurate image from a 4K UHD/HDR/DV disc, stream, etc. So I focused on how to get the best 1080p image I could, because every display out there can reproduce the color gamut of REC.709 and the peak white of 100nits at which 1080p films are mastered. So I know I'm seeing exactly what was indented by the creators. Especially after calibrating with a 3D LUT – what Hollywood studios use. But I do get to keep the nice blacks of OLED, the off-axis viewing of OLED, and the great 4K upscaling of 1080p material. So for me, a new 4K display IS worth it, but not to watch native 4K UHD material if that makes sense. This post may sound strange, and I can go into details, but it's just how things are.

  60. JediFonger

    i tend to think 4k, 8k, xk resolution is the marketing gimmick…

    *NOT* HDR. if anything (like you've researched) it is too confusing so the customer stays away.

    which why CE mfr never learn, stay away for multiple standards, just use one and customers will be happy.

    HDR10, HDR10+, HLG, DV, avg joe doesn't really care, it just has to work.

    but because of the complexity, they stay away from it altogether.

    Well 4K is 4K – a resolution. How can that be a gimmick? But to sell 4K, they needed to add eye candy via HDR, DV, etc., because most people CAN see those even on a 40-55" monitor, less so the 4K resolution. Even if the colors are way off, the black levels wrong, the EOTF tracking curve off, RGB separation bad, etc., it doesn't matter – you can show it. Of course the differing standards are another mess, I agree with you.

  61. avg joe cant tell between 480,720 v 1080 and now you add upscalin its all not a big diff.the industry should focus on pushing a single hdr standard. like when cd came out it was one standard and thats it

    ghostwind

    Well 4K is 4K – a resolution. How can that be a gimmick? But to sell 4K, they needed to add eye candy via HDR, DV, etc., because most people CAN see those even on a 40-55" monitor, less so the 4K resolution. Even if the colors are way off, the black levels wrong, the EOTF tracking curve off, RGB separation bad, etc., it doesn't matter – you can show it. Of course the differing standards are another mess, I agree with you.

  62. ghostwind

    Well 4K is 4K – a resolution. How can that be a gimmick? But to sell 4K, they needed to add eye candy via HDR, DV, etc., because most people CAN see those even on a 40-55" monitor, less so the 4K resolution. Even if the colors are way off, the black levels wrong, the EOTF tracking curve off, RGB separation bad, etc., it doesn't matter – you can show it. Of course the differing standards are another mess, I agree with you.

    There are two competing (but complementary) approaches for video improvements: more pixels and better pixels. 4K UHD is attempt to do a lot of both. Quadruple the pixels from 1080p. But also much better pixels, with high dynamic range, and wide color gamut.

    Everything I’ve read the past decade or more says that “better pixels” is more useful than “more pixels”. Blind testing has shown that people prefer darker blacks and better contrast over higher resolution per se. This is the explanation for why Pioneer’s Kuro plasma sets got the best reviews circa 2007 even though they were only 720p-ish competing against 1080p LCD displays.

    It seems something’s gone wrong between spec creation and media authoring, and the reality that most or all displays still can’t achieve the assumed performance. And it’s buzzword soup confusing even the enthusiasts, much less normal people.

  63. JediFonger

    avg joe cant tell between 480,720 v 1080 and now you add upscalin its all not a big diff.the industry should focus on pushing a single hdr standard. like when cd came out it was one standard and thats it

    The comparison to the CD doesn't work. As people tend to buy larger screens each year, 4k does count. In any case, it's technically there and possible. HDR in any format is not. There is no consumer hardware that can meet any of the HDR standards (HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, etc.). I am all for one standard, but it has to work with available hardware.

  64. DaveF

    There are two competing (but complementary) approaches for video improvements: more pixels and better pixels. 4K UHD is attempt to do a lot of both. Quadruple the pixels from 1080p. But also much better pixels, with high dynamic range, and wide color gamut.

    Everything I’ve read the past decade or more says that “better pixels” is more useful than “more pixels”. Blind testing has shown that people prefer darker blacks and better contrast over higher resolution per se. This is the explanation for why Pioneer’s Kuro plasma sets got the best reviews circa 2007 even though they were only 720p-ish competing against 1080p LCD displays.

    It seems something’s gone wrong between spec creation and media authoring, and the reality that most or all displays still can’t achieve the assumed performance. And it’s buzzword soup confusing even the enthusiasts, much less normal people.

    An increase in resolution to 4k, 8K, is something the hardware manufactures can easily do as technology progresses and display sizes get larger. So for me, more pixels is not a bad thing, because even if you may not notice it on your display size, at least it's implemented correctly, etc. Even if there is no content, it's fine, because upscaling on a large display is always a good thing. In other words, I don't see 4K (or resolution increase) as a competing approach to UHD, and I don't see it hurting anyone. So I see them as separate things. A lot of 4K HDR is mastered on 1080p HDR monitors for home release 🙂 So we can separate resolution from color space, gamut, dynamic range, etc.

    Yes, what's gone wrong is that the hardware necessary for displaying proper 4K UHD (per spec) with whatever HDR flavor you want, is not there yet in the consumer space. And the way hardware manufacturers are going about displaying those standards is with band-aid solutions. To make the proper hardware is very expensive, and I don't see any incentive for the display manufacturers to do it. People seem fine with HDR, judging from what I read on this and other forums. And this is a small sample of enthusiasts too! So why would the display manufacturers care? What percent of TV buyers even bother to calibrate their TVs at a very basic level? A tiny one, so they are fine with the products they are releasing. It's these band-aid solutions that are causing a lot of confusion too, as each manufacturer does things differently.

    So yeah, the future is bleak IMHO. When HD came out, it came out and worked with the displays. REC.709, 100nits, etc. – they worked. UHD, works with 0 displays 🙂

    Now, there IS a better way to "better pixels", and that's exactly the approach I've taken by using a 3D LUT calibration and box. A lot of people can get "better pixels" today by calibrating to standards their displays can handle. 1080p Blu-rays have never looked better than on my 4K 65" LG C8. They literally look amazing. When I switch to a 4K UHD content, it look horrible in comparison. It has more detail, and that I wish I could get. That's the only thing.

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