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#21 of 204 Lee Scoggins

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Posted November 20 2002 - 10:04 AM

Quote:
This is exactly why I have no intention of clicking those links.


Thanks for keeping an open mind Lance. Posted Image What would Carl Sagan think about this presentation of facts?

Quote:
SACD is a nine and LP is a ten? Maybe upon initial playback of a very good vinyl pressing on a very good vinyl rig. Digital doesn't degrade!


Jagan,

This was based several auditions with a very fine turntable rig and Sony SACDs of symphonies also appearing on Classic Records vinyl. It was the closest I have been to explore the absolute best of each format. Vinyl does degrade, but the tweaks to fix that make many an audiophile happy in their hobby!

Quote:
I doubt ultrasonic noise makes a lick of difference for SACD. Ultrasonic noise that is something like -180dB in the 20Hz - 20KHz band is swamped by thermal noise in electronics that lives around -130dB anyway.


Yes, and as Vanderkooy even admits as a staunch DVDA supporter vanish with use of proper dithering technique.

Quote:
Why is "Deficiencies in Redbook" stated as a challenge for DVD-A?


By this I mean limitations of the base PCM methodology. I do recognize that DVDA overcomes some of these. Still, I find cymbals very hard to reproduce in DVDA convincingly.

Quote:
I understand why Class B amplifiers have some zero-crossing distortion, but why would PCM have it? I am very skeptical about that.


Check Ed Meitner's interview on Positive Feedback. It has to do with error rates when PCM resets the bits to zero.

Quote:
I like the documents, Lee.


Thank you very much. Please remember all that Technical is a PERSONAL opinion as I have now stated three times.

John Kotches,

I used Sony's charts because they are very well done in terms of graphics and I do not have the art background to do the description justice. These charts are also in the Technical document and as such do not represent a fully balanced view by design.

By the way, a Sony rep was on hand to verify my description as accurate when I presented the pages to the Atlanta Audio Society.
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#22 of 204 Ted Lee

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Posted November 20 2002 - 10:05 AM

the links worked okay for me...i didn't need to "save target...".

thanks for doing this lee. i didn't really understand the technical doc...but that's not surprising. Posted Image

{{{ john kotches }}} Posted Image
 

#23 of 204 Lee Scoggins

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Posted November 20 2002 - 10:09 AM

You are welcome Ted. Thanks for the comments.
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#24 of 204 Jagan Seshadri

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Posted November 20 2002 - 10:58 AM

Jagan asked Lee:
Quote:
I understand why Class B amplifiers have some zero-crossing distortion, but why would PCM have it?

Lee told Jagan:
Quote:
Check Ed Meitner's interview on Positive Feedback. It has to do with error rates when PCM resets the bits to zero.

Jagan checked out
the Ed Meitner interview, and has some comments on the zero-crossing distortion comments.

Ed Meitner said
Quote:
Imagine what happens at your zero crossing. You have all those bits flipping. You have, you know, noise shock in the system coming off the power supply if all of a sudden 23 bits change from all zeros to all ones. You have that at every zero crossing.

Wait a second. It's not like turning on 23 bits at the microelectronics level is like throwing 23 Frankenstein switches and taking down the power grid! Ed Meitner, however, is right that 1-bit converters don't have that problem. 1-bit converters, for the record, can exhibit limit-cycle tones at zero-levels as well as generate high-frequency switching noise.

Just like the high-frequency switching noise can be filtered off, decoupling capacitors and proper power supply design can filter out power sags due to PCM numeric rollovers. Determining which technology's situation is worse depends largely on the implementation of the technology.

Then again, selective memory may be at work with Ed since he said earlier in the interview:
Quote:
And don’t forget that every A to D converter that you see on the market today starts off as a DSD modulator. So then you have the DSD signal on the A to D that just goes to the PCM down sampler or decimator and gets turned into PCM, so the life of the audio in the digital world really starts off as a one-bit signal.

So the rolling-over bits would not be directly coupled to the analog side of the ADC anyway!

Ed Meitner also said,
Quote:
You have minimal resolution at zero crossing, whereby with DSD you have maximum resolution and on and on.

I agree with that statement. However, Meitner goes on to say that dither ('dancing bits') provides the only PCM resolution around zero-level. I don't know why he says this, since DSD is basically dancing around the zero-level itself. In my view, PCM+dither gets around the problems that Meitner suggests.

Thanks for pointing me to the article!

-JNS

#25 of 204 Lee Scoggins

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Posted November 20 2002 - 11:52 AM

Jagan,

You are welcome. I think you took more engineering courses than I did in college. Posted Image

What I am hearing from my engineer buddies is that switching all 23 at once while not enough to damage the local power grid IS enough to create errors in the bitstream.

It is an interesting phenomena and requires more research on my part. I think on balance each format has its own technical weaknesses. Nothing is perfect in digital it seems.

I go more by what I hear and I do believe that ultrafast sampling rates get the tonality and texture and note transients right.

Decide for yourself, however. I would just like to see high rez audio get more mainstream. I think we can do better than redbook and a LOT better than MP3.

Posted Image
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#26 of 204 Justin Lane

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Posted November 20 2002 - 12:47 PM

Quote:
Still, I find cymbals very hard to reproduce in DVDA convincingly.


There's the famous quote...I was waiting for this one Lee, as you tend to use it in every DVD-A vs. SACD post. Cymbals sound fine to me on DVD-A though.Posted Image

Seriously, I found the comparison decent enough but a bit SACD biased. The major problem I see is naming the Stones disc as watershed SACD discs when no one in the buying public outside of forums like these know these discs are SACD. Title counts are off as has already been mentioned. Overall some interesting observations, but nothing I would consider new. The same points for and against each format still exist and are not going to go away anytime soon.

J

#27 of 204 Lee Scoggins

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Posted November 20 2002 - 01:13 PM

Quote:
The major problem I see is naming the Stones disc as watershed SACD discs


Oh come on. There is a picture of the Stones SACD next to the word "Watershed" in the dictionary. It created tons of excitement and grass roots appeal and sold well as a catalog remaster. A complete home run. And Clear Channel promoted the hell out of Super Audio on the remasters at hundreds of radio stations.

Quote:
Cymbals sound fine to me on DVD-A though.


I strongly feel that even in DVDA, cymbals sound too harsh and metallic and with not enough shimmer. And I hear this in the studio and on $100K stereo systems.
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#28 of 204 KeithH

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Posted November 20 2002 - 02:06 PM

Lee said:

Quote:
It created tons of excitement and grass roots appeal and sold well as a catalog remaster.


The Stones are immensely popular. How can you begin to associate positive sales figures so strongly with the SACD format? The hybrid SACDs replaced the original ABCKO CDs, are located in the CD department of all stores, and make no mention of SACD capability on the outer packaging. Had they been released as single-layer SACDs and sold as well, that would really be something. I would then say that SACD had arrived. However, there is no way that they would sell nearly as well as single-layer discs. For one thing, far fewer retailers would carry them. There is no way that Wal-Mart, K-Mart, and all the other stores that are not carrying SACDs would carry Stones single-layer discs. The Stones remasters are selling well primarily because they are hybrids and because they are being marketed as CDs. Now, I am not about to say that SACD capability has had no bearing on the sales of the remastered Stones discs, but I feel strongly that the overwhelming popularity of the Stones has contributed to the sales far more than the inclusion of SACD layers.

You commented on the excellent sales of the Stones discs as a "catalog remaster". How often do we see remasters of an artist with the notoriety and marketability of the Stones? Furthermore, look at what ABCKO did here. ABCKO released 22 titles simultaneously, including UK versions of classic albums that had never been released on CD in the US. Metamorphosis had never been released on CD. Also, ABCKO packaged the remasters in digipaks that are faithful to the original LP artwork, which is an excellent way to gain the interest of dyed-in-the-wool Stones fans. This was a huge effort on the part of ABCKO involving one of the most marketable, if not the most marketable, rock bands in history. These discs were destined to sell well, SACD or not. Look at the popularity and hype surrounding Forty Licks, which is not a hybrid SACD. The Stones are hugely popular. So is the CD format.

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#29 of 204 John Kotches

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Posted November 20 2002 - 03:36 PM

Lee said this in one post:

Quote:
I strongly feel that even in DVDA, cymbals sound too harsh and metallic and with not enough shimmer. And I hear this in the studio and on $100K stereo systems.

This is positively comical.

The initial capture is the biggest limiting factor in the whole chain, if that isn't done right . Having heard some very expensive systems myself, I don't find DVD-A to be lacking in any aspect of musical reproduction.

If you want to puff your chest up about those $100K stereo systems that's fine. Ever listened to the Meridian 800 DVD into an 861 processor driven DSP8000 loudspeakers? It's only about $80K worth of gear, so you'll have $20K left over to spend on treating the room for optimum sonics.

It sounds as good as the > $100K setups I've heard.

Regards,
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Opinions are my own, not representative of the publication I write for.

#30 of 204 John Kotches

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Posted November 20 2002 - 03:50 PM

Lee said this in another post:

Quote:
I used Sony's charts because they are very well done in terms of graphics and I do not have the art background to do the description justice. These charts are also in the Technical document and as such do not represent a fully balanced view by design.

The Sony diagram for DSD is about as accurate as this traceroute diagram for the path I take to get to the Home Theater Forum Web Server:

Posted Image


The only time the Sony diagram is valid is when the recording goes from Mic input to DSD to the disc. How many recordings have zero mixing and mastering steps?

I'm curious, in this truly balanced presentation you gave did you extend an invitation to Meridian? Their US offices are in Atlanta, so it's not like attendance would have been a tremendous expense for them.

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Opinions are my own, not representative of the publication I write for.

#31 of 204 John Kotches

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Posted November 20 2002 - 03:53 PM

Mike,

I find your post to be insulting and offensive on a personal level.

Posting an "in kind" reply would be in strict violation of the rules of this forum.
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#32 of 204 Dan Stone

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Posted November 20 2002 - 04:20 PM

I really wish sometimes that people could simply agree to disagree on a topic rather than continuing to exchange barbs with one another nitpicking over trivial technicalities ad nauseum.

Perhaps then we can get back to discussing the music, which is what I hope matters most to everybody, despite one's listening medium of choice.
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Try to look at the forest rather than focus on the trees, or waste hours upon hours critiquing minutia on the tree itself

#33 of 204 Jack Briggs

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Posted November 20 2002 - 04:43 PM

Well, this one seems to have gone downhill for long enough. This thread is closed for the moment. I apologize for the inconvenience.

#34 of 204 Parker Clack

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Posted November 20 2002 - 05:51 PM

John:

I don't think that Mike was being personally insulting to you at all. He was curious to how you were reading them when he couldn't.

The error with not being able to download the files was on our end. It is now taken care of.

Parker

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#35 of 204 Parker Clack

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Posted November 20 2002 - 05:53 PM

I have opened this thread back up for now. Keep it civil gentlemen.

Parker

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are confidential and can only be released to other insurance companies,

pharmaceutical​ reps, suppliers of medical equipment and for some

reason the RNC."
 


#36 of 204 Micahel C

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Posted November 21 2002 - 12:35 AM

OK, I give up. I've had no problem downloading this, but when I try to open with Word Pad, it locks up the program. Any ideas?

#37 of 204 Lee Scoggins

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Posted November 21 2002 - 12:56 AM

Quote:
These discs were destined to sell well, SACD or not. Look at the popularity and hype surrounding Forty Licks, which is not a hybrid SACD. The Stones are hugely popular. So is the CD format.


Keith,

I do agree these hybrids would have done well regardless, but the reason I feel it is a watershed event is that Super Audio was widely promoted across many radio stations and gathered lots of mention, all positive based on my reading cept for the negative CNN wire story about copyright protection, in the mainstream press. It also made a big splash in high end journals and more importantly the hardcore music magazines like Rolling Stone, Spin, ICE, etc.

Quote:
The Sony diagram for DSD is about as accurate as this traceroute diagram for the path I take to get to the Home Theater Forum Web Server:


John, it is insulting for you to compare my diagram to this one. There is no connection at all and the Sony diagram is much more detailed.

Look. I did what I could to explain DSD to a group of engineers and non-engineers in ONE PAGE. I am proud of my work in the Technical piece. There was not time to write an AES piece though I can refer you to several.

Maybe the question we should ask is why Widescreen Review has not done a detailed comparison? That would be valuable for your readers. As I have offered before, I would be happy to help out there and could bring in some good references.

Quote:
If you want to puff your chest up about those $100K stereo systems that's fine.


This is also unfair as I am not bragging about listening to $100K systems. That is fairly routine in the circles I travel in given my work with Chesky and the large number of audiophiles I know around the country.

I was simply saying that my opinion is that 24/96 does not adequately reproduce the cymbals properly on even very high resolution systems.

If I feel there is one benefit that working on some many music projects has afforded me is the right to express my opinion on sound quality.

John,

I was hoping that I could present my findings on the two new audio formats and we could then use this discussion to go into more detail on each point and debate in a logical fashion. These personal attacks do not add any value to the HTF.

Let's put aside our personal differences and focus on the facts and clearly marked opinions as I tried to present them in the documents.
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#38 of 204 Lee Scoggins

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Posted November 21 2002 - 01:29 AM

Edited.
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#39 of 204 John Kotches

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Posted November 21 2002 - 03:45 AM

Lee,

The Sony diagram grossly understates the DSD side of the equation. If you go by the Sony diagram, there's that cute little disc in there that hides a lot of detail.

My diagram grossly understates the path between my computer and the HT Forum site. It's illustration by example.

Sony has better graphics artists than me.

Quote:
Maybe the question we should ask is why Widescreen Review has not done a detailed comparison? That would be valuable for your readers. As I have offered before, I would be happy to help out there and could bring in some good references.

You are still confusing me with the senior editorial staff at WSR. Gary and Perry make the decisions about what type of content is included within the publication.

I don't know how valuable it would be for our readership. I have suggested in the past that you contact Gary and Perry directly about this, which could be done in our forum here, or via e-mail through the website.

Let's look at the evidence....

You mention $100K systems. You mention that $100K systems are common "in the circles you travel in".

You posted the information for commentary, and when people call you on your obvious DSD bias you don't like it.

So did you invite anyone to speak for DVD-Audio? I mentioned Meridian since they are local to you.

Regards,
Surround Music Enthusiast / Curmudgeon in Training
Opinions are my own, not representative of the publication I write for.

#40 of 204 Tim Hoover

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Posted November 21 2002 - 05:40 AM

Micahel, I'm having the same problem. Download is fine, but I get an illegal operation message whenever I try to open either document.
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