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High Resolution Audio Comparison (1 Viewer)

Lee Scoggins

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Lee
Friends,
Please see the following links for comparisons of the new high resolution formats DVD Audio and Super Audio:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/Practical.doc
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/Technical.doc
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To download these Word documents, please right-click on the above links, select "Save Target As" and file name. The files will then download automatically.
*************************************
Disclaimer!
Please note that I tried to keep the Practical as objective as possible while Technical are notes gathered from many years as a recording engineer and a final gradation on sound quality differences.
Please share with me your thoughts and ideas.
I hope this will further help Forum members and visitors understand and manage the complex choices presented by the two formats.
:)
 

John Kotches

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Mar 14, 2000
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Lee,
Your title counts are way off for DVD-A in the Practical doc.... DVD-A is 377 or 416 depending on whether you take the Quad list title count or the Meridian sponsored list at High Fidelity Review.
I realize that this paper goes back awhile, but if you had wanted accurate counts, you should have asked -- 230 titles might have been accurate sometime in mid 2001.
Also, I'm not a major reviewer -- and my inclusion with people like Bob Stuart, Mark Waldrep and the others, while flattering, is not something that I have earned to date. If you want to include a "big name" reviewer use Dr. Robert E. Greene from TAS. I'm not Bob Stuart, but I'm sure he would appreciate it if you spelled the company name right, it's Meridian. Why leave off Alastair Roxburgh from Alpha Digital/EAD or John Dawson at Arcam from the DVD-A supporters list?
As far as breakthrough titles go on DVD-Audio, HC is good, but don't forget that Fleetwood Mac's Rumours sold more copies. Then there's Queen's A Night at the Opera. These certainly deserves listing.
The number of DVD-Audio players on the market exceeds the 20 you are listing, regardless of whether it is actively marketed players or number of players since launch.
Currently it's
Panasonic: 5 models
Toshiba: 3 models
Denon: 4 models
Meridian: 2 models
Pioneer: 1 (DVD-A only is what I'm counting not universal)
EAD: 2 models
JVC: 5 models minimum
I haven't even hit all the players yet, and I'm stopping at 22, as I've already proven my point......
I have also excluded HT in a Box.
You did not mention that the noise characteristics of High-Res PCM are linear across the pass band, and ignored the rising noise characteristic of SACD, beginning at 4k.
There are other things I don't like, but that's enough for 2:00am CDT on a first glance.
Regards,
 

Lee Scoggins

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You did not mention that the noise characteristics of High-Res PCM are linear across the pass band, and ignored the rising noise characteristic of SACD, beginning at 4k.
There are two problems with this. First, many people believe that the noise does not dip below 12K. Second, most engineers do not feel the ultrasonic noise is audible.
Of course, to have a balanced view, we could go into the zero crossing distortion that PCM has inherent.
If you want to criticize the whole list fine. There was enough thought and research behind this that I can respond point by point.
Your words would carry more weight with me if you at least thanked me for the effort.
 

James Q Jenkins

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Sep 24, 2000
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Lee, no offense, but from reading your posts over the last few years it seems to me as if this would be the equivalent of a white paper comparing Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows XP presented by Steve Ballmer. :) I mean your SIG is "Super Audio: So Close It Kisses The Master Tape!" for gosh sakes.
I can't read the links. I will do so however if I have time when they are up.
 

John Kotches

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Lee,
.
Wow... there have been somewhere between 140 and 190 titles releaesed in the last month and a half on DVD-A? That's impressive as hell. Of course it's also just plain wrong.
If you don't want constructive criticism about the document, don't have it posted.
 

John Kotches

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Mike,

I only clicked on the Practial link last night which worked.

However if you right click on the link and select "Save Target As" you can download the documents to your machine and peruse them at your leisure.

Regards,
 

John Kotches

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Messages
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There are two problems with this. First, many people believe that the noise does not dip below 12K. Second, most engineers do not feel the ultrasonic noise is audible.
Who cares what they believe about the noise dip below 12K. It's been measured on every SACD player that Atkinson has put to the test.
You can chose to ignore the noise rise within one of our hearing's most sensitive regions, I chose not to.
The last time I checked the start of noise increase (4k) was well within the audible band.
 

John Kotches

Senior HTF Member
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Messages
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Lee,

Your point of view is so balanced that you just used the Sony/Philips marketing glossies in the technical page.

Nice job on balance there.

Then again, it was exactly what I expected.
 

Jagan Seshadri

Supporting Actor
Joined
Nov 5, 2001
Messages
528
I like the documents, Lee.
Regarding the "Practical" document:
- I agree with mostly everything :emoji_thumbsup:
- Why is "Deficiencies in Redbook" stated as a challenge for DVD-A?
Regarding the "Technical" document:
- The 'cultural lock-in' to PCM is something I had trouble with, and it took a lot more than that Sony/Philips block diagram to convince this former PCM-head of the virtues of DSD. This is mainly because these kinds of diagrams tend to abstract blocks in ways that hide the nasty side and promote the advantageous side.
- SACD is a nine and LP is a ten? Maybe upon initial playback of a very good vinyl pressing on a very good vinyl rig. Digital doesn't degrade!
In support of SACD,
I doubt ultrasonic noise makes a lick of difference for SACD. Ultrasonic noise that is something like -180dB in the 20Hz - 20KHz band is swamped by thermal noise in electronics that lives around -130dB anyway.
In support of DVD-Audio,
I understand why Class B amplifiers have some zero-crossing distortion, but why would PCM have it? I am very skeptical about that.
Rebuttals and comments are welcome!
-JNS
 

LanceJ

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Oct 26, 2002
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......the equivalent of a white paper comparing Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows XP presented by Steve Ballmer
This is exactly why I have no intention of clicking those links.
From the beginning I've felt DSD (sacd's digital format) was an ill-conceived and executed idea. And to me, DSD has too many strange sonic anomalies that negatively alter the original sound.
LJ
 

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