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Hi-power Plate amplifier - give your input


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93 replies to this topic

#1 of 94 OFFLINE   John E Janowitz

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Posted October 30 2002 - 10:40 AM

Hi Everyone,

Don't want to get too far ahead of myself yet, but I'm working with someone on developing a high power plate amp right now. Before I say much of anything on what I have planned, I'd like to know YOUR input.

What power level would you want? 500W? 1000W? 2000W?

What features would you want? Adjustible subsonic? Adjustible lowpass? Crossover defeat switch? Built in parametric EQ? Please comment on any of these, or anything else you may think of.

What kind of target price would you be interested in? This would be dependent on pricing and features, but give me an idea of what to shoot for.

After I get some input, I'll give an idea on what I have planned so far.

John

#2 of 94 OFFLINE   Kyle Richardson

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Posted October 30 2002 - 10:56 AM

I was speaking with John about this amplifier this afternoon and it sounds VERY promising. Yes, folks 2000 watts is possible at a low ohm rating.
So you're thinking to yourself "Sure, they can provide a 2000 watt amp but at a price tag of at least $1000-$1500" Think again Posted Image

But, maybe 2000 watts is way overkill and most everybody will be happy with much less? We dont know so thats why we need everybody's input. We also need to know what options you guys want the most and what ones you can live without.

Speak up!
Kyle Richardson
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#3 of 94 OFFLINE   MichaelAngelo

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Posted October 30 2002 - 11:01 AM

John,

Sounds like a welcome project!

An amp rated at 700-800 watts would be nice, give a bit of headroom vs the PE amp.
Adjustable subsonic, say 5-20 hz, would be a must-have.
Ditto X-over defeat.
An option for the EQ would be cool too.

Price? Don't know enough about these things to suggest a price.....

I would've said 1000 watts but the idea of the price scares me-- Kyle, is it possible it won't break the bank?

#4 of 94 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted October 30 2002 - 11:20 AM

I would like to see:
*1000watt @ 4 ohms plate amp (fanless is always nice Posted Image)
*variable 2nd order rumble filter 5-20hz
*selectable cnd or 4th order LP filter over 40-120hz (and defeatable)
*infinately variable phase
*1 or 2 parametric EQ filters would be nice (though I wouldn't need it).
*also, a balanced input option would be cool for those of use that use the BFD.



or something that would be more specialized but REALLY REALLY COOL:
*1500watt @ 4 ohms plate amp (fanless is always nice Posted Image)
*NO rumble filter
*selectable cnd or 4th order LP filter over 40-120hz (and defeatable)
*infinately variable phase
*built in variable LT (like the BASIS)
*also, a balanced input option would be cool for those of use that use the BFD.

#5 of 94 OFFLINE   Kyle Richardson

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Posted October 30 2002 - 11:25 AM

Anthony, these would be fanless.
Michael, it all depends on how large your bank is. These will be reasonably priced considering the power they provide and the features you want on them. Obviously, the more options that are put on the more they will cost. Of course you cant set pricing, but give us an idea about what you would want to spend.
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#6 of 94 OFFLINE   MikeAcc

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Posted October 30 2002 - 11:32 AM

1000 watts @4 ohm
24db xover 35-150, 200

0-180 phase

Detachable power cord

the built in LT and balanced input for BFD would be cool.

Depending on price, the built in Para EQ would be sweet.

#7 of 94 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted October 30 2002 - 11:48 AM

Kyle/John, will these be Bash amps re-badged like the SVS amps?

#8 of 94 OFFLINE   Brian Bunge

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Posted October 30 2002 - 12:21 PM

Tony,

A lot of what you're looking for seems to be available in the Hypex amps. I'd love to see something like the HS500 model at a bit cheaper price.
Brian Bunge
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#9 of 94 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted October 30 2002 - 12:26 PM

Brian, depending on which model I am talking about.

I don't think any has a variable rumble filter w/o soldering. The built in LT is a work in progress by dan. The HS500 has a fan (which isnt too big of a deal since it is only sometimes on). There isn't a balanced input.
The power output is up to 3db in difference for the larger one.

#10 of 94 OFFLINE   Jonathan M

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Posted October 30 2002 - 12:26 PM

My suggestions: (I probably won't be buying one though - not for a few years anyway)

1000W is a good target - especially with the new low-sensitivity gigantic Xmax drivers coming out now.

Parametric EQ is best done elsewhere IMO - it'll be too costly to add a decent amount of equalization to satisfy everyone toa plate amp. External solutions aren't too expensive, anyway.

Linkwitz Transform on board is ideal - this would include the sub-sonic filter. These need not be externally adjustable IMO - just adjustable by substituting different value caps/resistors would be sufficient for most people. Make sure any resistors/caps here are hole-through, and not SMD!!

As for the low pass, this should be 4th order Linkwitz Riley and adjustable/bypassable. I don't think a true variable xover is needed - just some set values such as 40,60,80,100,120 is enough - most people either have it turned up high (ie try to bypass) or have it around 80Hz or so anyway. Variable Phase control would be a must - just like on most plate amps nowadays - the circuit is so simple it should be easy enough.

No need for speaker level inputs or high passed outs - this is for dedicated sub only use.

Just my thoughts!
"Price and quality are not correlated"

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#11 of 94 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted October 30 2002 - 12:44 PM

Quote:
Linkwitz Transform on board is ideal - this would include the sub-sonic filter.

a Linkwitz transform should NOT be used with a subsonic filter. Just the 1st order buffer with an Fc between 5-14hz. The group delay REALLY goes up with a second order filter

Quote:
These need not be externally adjustable IMO - just adjustable by substituting different value caps/resistors would be sufficient for most people. Make sure any resistors/caps here are hole-through, and not SMD!!


being one that has gone through all the handswaping, I vote for the Basis aproach. to do the hand swapping, you need LOTS of measured caps and resistors on hand. Also, being able to change the Q on the fly for music and HT would be really nice.

#12 of 94 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted October 30 2002 - 12:48 PM

I'm really friggin' interested. Posted Image

Lots of good suggestions up top. I'd LOVE to see 1000 watts or more, a 3rd/4th order adjustable infrasonic filter for reflex designs (I've mentioned this before...any reason this should be more difficult/expensive to include than the low-pass filters found on even the cheapest sub amps?), defeatable low-pass crossover.

I'd like to see power/options that make it a better decision than a pro amp.
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#13 of 94 OFFLINE   Bryan Michael

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Posted October 30 2002 - 01:08 PM

i would like to see a more powerfoll amp at the price to wat like the pe 250 wat plate amp a 500 or 1000 wat amp with a $ to wat of around 2-2.5watt to dollar wood be even swweter
there are olny 2 types of people in the world the irish and thoes who want to be irish

#14 of 94 OFFLINE   Jonathan M

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Posted October 30 2002 - 01:10 PM

Quote:
A Linkwitz transform should NOT be used with a subsonic filter. Just the 1st order buffer with an Fc between 5-14hz. The group delay REALLY goes up with a second order filter

Agreed. I was meaning a first order rumble filter - sorry for not making that clear.

Quote:
being one that has gone through all the handswaping, I vote for the Basis aproach. to do the hand swapping, you need LOTS of measured caps and resistors on hand. Also, being able to change the Q on the fly for music and HT would be really nice.

Fair enough. I'm not sure how hard it would be to make it adjustable - definitely worth some research I suppose. Also, you only really require LOTS of caps + resistors if you want to play around with different frequencies and Q's. If you know the response you want, a single set of components is all that's required - normal cap/resistor tolerance is OK considering room effects at these frequencies IMHO.

I think that the majority of people just want to pop the driver into an enclosure and get it as flat as possible to their desired frequency. There are ofcourse others (like me Posted Image ) that just want to keep changing things around!
"Price and quality are not correlated"

DIY Home Theatre

#15 of 94 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted October 30 2002 - 01:20 PM

Jonathan, IMO, youreally need to measure the caps and resistors to get <5% tolerance. On the batch of LT's I did, I hand matched everything to 2% or less to the theoretical value.

Having a variable LT means that on the fly: "hm...a Q=0.65 and an Fb of 20hz is still too boomy for my room. Lets try changing to an Fb=25hz. Ah...much better"

now, you can easily do this by hand if you have the solderless pins like my LT's did, but it still takes some time. I was just asking for the variable LT since we were looking at the "ultimate" sub amp (for a realistic budget).



#16 of 94 OFFLINE   John E Janowitz

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Posted October 30 2002 - 01:32 PM

Hi guys,

I hadn't thought of the LT. I really don't know enough about this. Isn't this something that would have to be completely different for different drivers and enclosures? Maybe not, but that was the impression I got. That would make it rather hard to implement in the amp. If someone can give me more of an idea on this, I can look into it.

As far as power goes, the lower the impedance, the cheaper the power will be. 1000W into 1ohm is much cheaper than 1000W into 4ohm. With the new drivers coming out like our AV woofers, the Tumult, the upcoming revision of the HE15, etc, all having dual 2ohm coils, this becomes a very easy option.

My thoughts on the parametric EQ was to have a 5 band 1/2 octave EQ. This would allow to EQ room modes, much like with the AudioControl Richter Scale. Points would be at 21.5Hz, 31.5Hz, 45Hz, 63Hz, and 90Hz if done at 1/2 octave like the Richter Scale. You'd have ability to boost or cut by 6-12dB at every one of these frequencies independently. Price wise it would add $25-$40 to the price of the amp. Much cheaper than buying a seperate EQ.

Other options would be the variable subsonic/infrasonic filter, whatever you want to call it. Most likely 4th order. Adjustible maybe 10Hz to 25Hz.

Xover 4th order adjustable 40Hz to 100Hz or so. This would be defeatable.

Phase may just be a 0-180 switch. Most people never use anywhere between.

As far as pricing goes, I can't get too specific yet. For an amp that will do 1000W or possibly even 2000W into a 1ohm load, with ALL the features I mentioned, we're talking around the ballpark price of the HD500 or LESS.

Anthony,

These are not remarked Bash amps. They are actually being designed completely for me from the ground up. For examples of other amplifiers by the designer, you can check out the Legacy subwoofers:

http://www.legacy-au...subwoofers.html

OR the class D MMATS car audio amplifiers here:
http://www.mmatsproa....com/classd.php

John

#17 of 94 OFFLINE   John E Janowitz

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Posted October 30 2002 - 01:35 PM

Anyone have a link to info on the BASIS unit?

John

#18 of 94 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted October 30 2002 - 01:39 PM

Bassis (typo)

http://www.marchandelec.com/wm8.htm
http://www.marchande.../ftp/wm8man.pdf

#19 of 94 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted October 30 2002 - 01:42 PM

Quote:
As far as power goes, the lower the impedance, the cheaper the power will be. 1000W into 1ohm is much cheaper than 1000W into 4ohm. With the new drivers coming out like our AV woofers, the Tumult, the upcoming revision of the HE15, etc, all having dual 2ohm coils, this becomes a very easy option.



but typically, wouldn't 1000watts at 1ohm have higher distortion levels than @4 ohms?

Quote:
My thoughts on the parametric EQ was to have a 5 band 1/2 octave EQ. This would allow to EQ room modes, much like with the AudioControl Richter Scale. Points would be at 21.5Hz, 31.5Hz, 45Hz, 63Hz, and 90Hz if done at 1/2 octave like the Richter Scale. You'd have ability to boost or cut by 6-12dB at every one of these frequencies independently. Price wise it would add $25-$40 to the price of the amp. Much cheaper than buying a seperate EQ


at 25-50, I would still rather pay for a BFD than to have 1/2 octave spacing...but that is just me.

Quote:
OR the class D MMATS car audio amplifiers here:


Those are my favorite car audio amps!!!!

Posted Image

#20 of 94 OFFLINE   Jeff Rosz

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Posted October 30 2002 - 03:18 PM

my wants are simple....

Neutrik Speakon connector.

120v power connector on the inside and outside.

BIG caps and transformer on the power supply.

i like multibanded parametric eq.

2000 watts? give it to me.

clip indicators.


the not so simple...
if your gonna do user changable LT, and not have tons of customer service calls because someone didnt plug the parts in right, how bout swapable edge card pcb resistor and cap modules. pie in the sky i know, but it would be a first(i think) and ya'll did ask. Posted Image
why have one when you can have two for twice the price?


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