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Ok, all of you Wharfedalers out there... (you know who you are)


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#1 of 19 OFFLINE   JackJD

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Posted October 17 2002 - 01:59 PM

For my third (yes, third... I know... I have a problem...Posted Image ) system, I have 4 wharfe modus 1.6 and a modus centre. Did I get a bad batch of these (all 4 floor-standers) or is there a large gap in the lower mid-range of these speakers? Anyone else notice this?

These are brand new speakers(played for about 40 hrs. or so), will the lower mid-range open up with break-in? Do I have a bad crossover in all 4 speakers... Bad design...? The front 2 are bi-wired, the rear are conventionally wired. There is no difference in the low mid-range gap between the front (bi-wired) and rear speakers.

I would appreciate some input from the other wharfe/modus owners/listeners on the forum. Thanks.

Cheers, JD
"When you've seen beyond yourself -then you may find, peace of mind, Is waiting there..."  -Within You Without You

#2 of 19 OFFLINE   Paul Clarke

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Posted October 17 2002 - 04:57 PM

Hello Jack,

I believe this issue has been raised before...you might want to do a search. It was awhile back, as I recall.

I believe the break-in period and the placement sensitivity of the 1.6's are a real factor here. With both front and rear ports, these speakers like to breathe. Assuming you have already found the best locations (some struggle just with two---you have four) I would say that 100 hours is required for a full break-in with these.
"By the blood of our people are your lands kept safe."

#3 of 19 OFFLINE   JackJD

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Posted October 17 2002 - 06:58 PM

Thanks for the response, Paul.

I did do a search and read every thread concerning Wharfedale speakers and bi-wiring(actually, I've read every thread 3-4 times over the past couple of weeks, while contemplating this purchase. I think I have them memorized!)... That's why I'm asking about this. Most of the earlier posted threads claim that the modus have a very STRONG mid-range... Well, if that's the case there is definately something wrong with mine.

The low mid-range/high bass is vitually non-existent...
The high, high-mids, and lower bass is great... Imaging is wonderful... But, the sonic hole is driving me nuts!!!
"When you've seen beyond yourself -then you may find, peace of mind, Is waiting there..."  -Within You Without You

#4 of 19 OFFLINE   JackJD

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Posted October 18 2002 - 02:26 PM

Phillip? Geoff? Angelo? Paul(Thanks for the earlier reply)?

Anyone...?
"When you've seen beyond yourself -then you may find, peace of mind, Is waiting there..."  -Within You Without You

#5 of 19 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted October 18 2002 - 03:38 PM

Hi Jack

I can't comment on them as I've never listened to them....

As Paul stated, and you have read, this was raised a while back by Phil I belive. I know their placment sensitive and break-in may help, but on the whole I just can't speak to it.

Might, in the end have to eq them if after break in and all placment options have been tried and the problem is still the problem. Of course this would require that you have pre-outs & in's for all channels, or at least if you have a tape loop on your receiver you could eq for just 2 channel stereo and formates (PL, PLII, etc) useing a 2 channel in-put.
Of course then you might have some phase issue depending on how much eq-ing you have to do.

Probley not what you want to hear I am sure.

Maybe Phil or Angelo can chime in as I belive both have the 1.6's. By now I am sure they have the hours on them and experimented with all placement options.
Maybe the mid-range gets better with play-time and placement, I just can't say.
My experience is with the Wharf Emerald line (93's, 95's, 99's, & Center in Oak) in our bedroom system.
And it saddens me to say the (midrange) is probley one of, if not thier strongest point.

Edit:
I must add that the 99's I care the ~{least for in the midrange}~ while not terrible by any means, they just sound much more clouded than the 3' or 5's in the midrange.
End Edit:

All that and still no help to you, sorry Jack....

Regards
Geof
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#6 of 19 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted October 19 2002 - 04:36 AM

Jack

Another idea, though it's not what one would like to have to do with brand new speaks....

Try pluging the port in the rear, or the port in the front or both. Experiment to see what effect it has and where in each case. Maybe it will be of some help in your problem.
Certainly they were not designed to be plugged, but at this point if all elese as failed, it's worth a try.

Im not sure if the midrange drivers comparment is seperate from the bass driver, but if it is, you might pull the mid-driver and check for leaks.

Another thing, I belive (not sure on the 1.6) they use poly fill sheets in the speaker. You might try "reduceing" or add to it. If you go into the speaker check all the wireing as one of my 95's had a positive on a negative in the crossover!!!! That really screwed things up/////Posted Image

Nobody wants to tear thier speakers apart, but if all else fails and eq-ing is not an option for what ever reason, these other things may or may not help.

If Angelo or Phil don't chime in, you might try a PM or email to them to see if this improved with placement or time. I know ~{Phil really had a problem}~ with the (midrage) and might be able give you his take on if the midrange problem went away, got better, or none of the above with his posssibly approaches he might have taken....

Jack
Where did you pick up your 1.6's, wood color, and may I ask price???
Ubid has been blowing them out for next to nothing....Black most of the time but some Rose Wood has been showing as of late.

Hang in thier buddy
Geoff
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#7 of 19 OFFLINE   Seth_L

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Posted October 19 2002 - 05:23 AM

Jack,

What frequency are you referring to when you say lower midrange?

Here's a graph of the frequency response of my Whafedale Modus 1.6 against my Infinity Interlude IL40. These are both in room responses. As you'll see they're quite similar. I don't think I'd really say that there's a hole in the Modus's response.

http://stereo.d2g.co....6_response.gif [21.2k]

Seth

#8 of 19 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted October 19 2002 - 05:59 AM

Seth

Excellent to see an in room graph!
Certainly appears to be no monster hole in the graph....

Jack

Do you have an Spl meter?
Do you have a freq disc?

Not the most accurate way to measure but useing the Rat Shack meter and a freq disc you could find the hole you persive to hear threw measuring.

I don't know, maybe there as a bad run of the 1.6's, but until you measure and play with placement it would be tuff to say conclusive that the hole is thier.

No pun intended, but is your hearing ok???
Have you had it checked recently, as some people do have damage and don't know it from work, or our younger crazy concert years. Stabbing in the dark here! Posted Image

Do some in room measureing if at all possible to take out the guessing that your not hearing what you belive your not hearing. You also could have some heavy peeking freqs very close to the range that appears dead. This could also lead you to belive there is a hole....

Are you running them full range or crossed at the receiver?

From Seths graph, ~{in "his room" with "his placement"}~, a monster lower midrange hole dose not appear to be their....

HUMMMMM~strange

Geoff
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#9 of 19 OFFLINE   JackJD

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Posted October 19 2002 - 08:09 AM

First of all, Thank you much for responding...

Seth, I can't believe I forgot to put you on my wharfe S.O.S. list... Do you still own all those speakers? Any changes on the favorite in the bunch after break-in?

Well, I keep experimenting/playing around with these speakers to see if I can narrow down the problem.

Unfortunately, I do not own a frequency test disc... The best I can do is give you one of the more glaring problem discs- Revolver by the Beatles. Songs like "I'm Only Sleeping" and "And Your Bird Can Sing" in which McCartney's bass line is snaking along all over from the high to lower bass range - the lower notes resonate loud and clear, but as the bass line goes up the scale, they all but disappear... Then Boom! The lower notes kick in again. This is apparent throughout the album, including some of Ringo's drum tracks as well. Perhaps if you own the album you can listen to the tracks to figure out the frequencies I'm talking about.

Geoff,
I have no problems with hearing loss (yet). I am a musician and I have my hearing checked often. Also I've asked others to listen, figuring they could lend a "clean" ear- all noticed the problem... Some without even having to point it out.
I think the possibility of a loose or crossed wire is right out, as all 4 speakers exhibit the same anomalies...
To answer your other questions: All 5 (4 Floor, 1 centre)speakers are new, Rose, and all 5 were less than $500 total... including shipping...

Seth,
What kind of changes did you notice in the 1.6's as they break-in? Did you have to do any modifications such as Geoff was speaking of earlier? Are yours Bi-wired(What gauge wire)? What kind of Amp, How many watts are you running to speaker?


Hey fellas, I REALLY appreciate the help as i try to work my way through this...

Cheers, JD
"When you've seen beyond yourself -then you may find, peace of mind, Is waiting there..."  -Within You Without You

#10 of 19 OFFLINE   Seth_L

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Posted October 19 2002 - 09:12 AM

Jack,

I still have them all (pair of Modus 1.6, pair Emerald 99, pair of Sapphire 89). If all goes well I hope to add a pair of Rocket 750s to them in a few weeks.

They are not bi-wired. They are in the same condition they came out of the box in. I've attempted no mods or anything. When I listen to them they're driven from my Sony DA5ES (110x6). The amp during the frequency measurements was not the DA5ES, but an older Sony. The measurements were made with pink noise at 75dB. I can't really say I noticed any changes during break in. I'm not trying to say they didn't change, but I listened to them all along as the broke in. I didn't break them in while I wasn't around.

I still think the Sapphire 89s sound the best of the bunch. (The Rocket 750s lay waste to all of them though.) However, I've been listening to the Modus 1.6 pretty much exclusively for the last few months. They happen to be what's plugged into my system. The Infinity IL40s, Sapphire 89s, and Emerald 99s are all in the other room plugged into my 2nd system where I was measuring their frequency responses and what not.

Seth

#11 of 19 OFFLINE   JackJD

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Posted October 20 2002 - 07:37 AM

Alright, I've been playing with these speakers all weekend and they are driving me CRAZY!!!

I've trying playing with placement, bi-wiring, different amps, different setting w/ receiver, DVD, CD, DVD-A, sacd...

The result...

Posted Image THESE SPEAKERS'LOWER MID/HIGH BASS SOUNDS LIKE GARBAGE Posted Image

Actually it sounds like its not there at all...
What is there sounds like its playing very quietly in the background, through a pillow.

I am so disappointed, I don't know what to do with myself. I read so many good (price considered) reviews of these speakers, and so many who owned them spoke highly of them.

I'm thinking of contacting Wharfedale support to see if they have any troubleshooting suggestions...

Any more suggestions from those on the Wharfedale S.O.S. list (or anyone else)? PLEASE?!

...I appreciate it...

Yours Sad and Dejected-like, JD
"When you've seen beyond yourself -then you may find, peace of mind, Is waiting there..."  -Within You Without You

#12 of 19 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted October 20 2002 - 04:18 PM

Hi Jack

Give Warfedale America a call and ask for Jeff. The # is in your manual.

Explain the situation and see what he has to say. He has been excellent to work with and may have some insite to your problem. As I mentioned there could be a bad run and they have heard from others! Might be in the crossover as this problem dose sound like it's where the two drivers are meeting.

Jeff is the man and will do all he can to help. Even as far as to send parts or new speaks. Normaly parts such as grills, drivers, bi-amp cup, plinth, spikes, crossover, ect, they just normaly send it to you Fedex without you sending your part or parts back.
This has been my experience with Wharf and others have said the same.

Hope you & Wharf can find the problem and it's "NOT" just the way thier supposed to sound.

Seths graph dose not appear to show this, so a problem somewhere is more than likely.

Regards
Geoff
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#13 of 19 OFFLINE   JackJD

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Posted October 21 2002 - 04:16 AM

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the name and number, your support is very kind...
I sent an email to IAG service last evening (before your post), so I suppose I'll wait until I hear something there. If the e-mail route doesn't work out, I'll pick up the phone and call Jeff.


I'll check in a bit later to post happenings (for the 2 or 3 people who seem to care...)

Yours, Still Sad and Dejected-like, JD
"When you've seen beyond yourself -then you may find, peace of mind, Is waiting there..."  -Within You Without You

#14 of 19 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted October 25 2002 - 09:49 AM

Hey Jack

Did Wharfedale contact you after your email?

If not, did you call IAG-America and ask for Jeff and if so what was the out come?

Hope something was offered to give you hope! They have been extremly good to me and would hope they do the same for you....

Let me know whats up, email me if you like as I am curious as to your out come with the problem!

Geoff
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#15 of 19 OFFLINE   chris evans

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Posted October 25 2002 - 09:25 PM

i do would love to hear what happend

#16 of 19 OFFLINE   JackJD

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Posted October 28 2002 - 05:57 PM

Hello, Geoff.

Wharfedale support e-mailed me two days after my request... Telling me to call Jeff and gave me the number.

In the meantime... I downloaded a frequency test program to verify the problem frequency range in order to properly explain it Jeff or the tech support technician when I spoke with them. as I was going through the frequencies, I noticed a loss of volume(with varying degree between freqs.) of signal between 70 - 125... At 74, each speaker was playing the frequency quite loud (in other words, there was nothing wrong with the speakers) but as I stood up and walked around the room there were at least three distinct spots of almost absolute silence... The largest and most defined was in the center of my listening area, about ear heighth.

MY SWEET-SPOT WAS A DEAD-SPOT!!

Now I've heard about this problem in theory, but never had this problem with any other speakers in this (or any other for that matter) room. I demoed this problem for a few others who were absolutely astounded ("it's like magic")... Loud, annoying, sine-wave and then 2 feet to the right... NOTHING.

I had always heard about sub cancellation, and cancellation due to speakers wired out-of-phase... but not this; Especially not to this degree.

They are fine in another room (in fact they sound rather nice... for the price they sound incredible...) But I don't want or need them in the other room. I am now back in the original room playing around with placement, if you can believe it... very difficult with these speakers.

I'm a bit embarrassed that I immediately blamed the problem on faulty speakers... But again I never heard anything like this. Oh, well. Live and learn... Oh, and I suppose I owe an apology to Wharfedale... Sorry...

I am VERY open to help and suggestions from others who have overcome these type of placement/cancellation problems...

Thanks again, Geoff... I hope to talk with you again soon.

Cheers, JD
"When you've seen beyond yourself -then you may find, peace of mind, Is waiting there..."  -Within You Without You

#17 of 19 OFFLINE   David Hull

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Posted October 28 2002 - 07:07 PM

JD,

I have some experience in this area, but, if I haven't overlooked it in a previous post, what speakers are playing (e.g., sub(s), rear, center) when there is cancellation?

Without knowing what you have, the first order of business is to go through a process of elimination to see if the cancellation is caused mostly by your room or by speaker interaction. Where are you positioned in your room relative to the speakers? What shape is the room?

First, play the test tone at the offending frequency through one speaker at a time. Is there still a null at the same frequency with any of the speakers? If no, then it isn't a problem with your room or placement. If there is, read below. If they all played fine, then play every speaker with each other independently - front left with front right, front left/center, front left/sub, front right/sub, both front/sub. When you find the combination that produces the cancellation, then make sure both speakers are wired in phase (reverse the wiring of one speaker to check). Then, make sure these speakers are the same distance to your listening position. Also, if it is a problem with your sub and mains, then try moving the sub around and, if that doesn't work, change the crossover frequency if possible. I had this problem once when I pointed a sub in a certain direction. When I turned the sub on, there was less bass than when it was off!

If there is cancellation with one speaker playing, or even just the front two (if they are the same distance from you) then you have a problem with its/their placement or your seating position - depends on how you look at it. Just try moving things around or change the layout of your room. A lot of times a problem like this can be made more aggravating because positioning that gives you the best bass might destroy the imaging or involve another trade-off.

I wrote this kind of fast and is late, so let me know if it is confusing or you have any questions. Good luck.

Dave

#18 of 19 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted October 29 2002 - 03:19 AM

Jack,

Ahh, far from a 12 year olds post about your problem. You know the type! Kenwood sucks or JBL rules. You took allot of time to try and find out whats going on and frustration proved to much....
But you ~{were not hearing things}~, or rather I should say, you were hearing things correctly.

Your measurments "prove" your not insane!!! Posted Image

The speakers are not faulty and there is a poblem...
It's not in your head!!!

Dave offers a number of things to try but I am curious as he is, to your room size, shape, sitting position, and if you run a sub and it's crossover setting???

Also, you are running the 1.6's full-range (ie)-large,?? I would assume this from your information to this point.

Is this in 2-channel stereo only or useing music DSP modes also?

The 1.6's have been said to be extremly placment sensitive (dual porting, front and rear) but I belive there is a bigger problem than just this. Would not surprise me at all, if (a driver) or crossover is wired wrong. Room problems can be just as big or bigger probems when running alot of speakers at once.

Hope you can zero in on the problem a bit further, at least you know the speaks are working correctly, tho not at the listen position.

And I'll bet your sitting almost dead center in the room??

Keep us informned and if the node problem can not be figured out from this post, possibly starting a new thread dealing with (just that issue) could bring others to read that are much sharper than I and offer far more advice for solving the mystery.

Dave has offered up a very good starting point with much good information. See what happens as you test along.

As I stated further up and need to correct that, I had one Emerald-MKII95 that had the Woofer wired out of phase.
Multi channel music was hardley noticable but 2-channel Stereo drove me insane. Like you, tried everything and finaly got pissed, tore into them.
Problem solved....Posted Image

Don't give up the ship as they say!!!

Regards
Geoff
~{ Speak of what you know, listen to what you don't.! }~  

#19 of 19 OFFLINE   Philip Hamm

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Posted October 31 2002 - 01:24 PM

Sorry I wasn't here to add to the conversation, I was on vacation.

The Modus 1.6 speakers are very sensitive to room placement. They need to be out from the walls quite a bit. I have also noticed a midrange hole, but when I rearranged my room it for the most part has disapeared. However, I do not use that system for anything close to "critical" listening. It's pretty much for dinner music, and I got the Modus speakers more for their look (better than the Aiwa Mini System crap I was using) than for their performance.

For the price they rule my ass.
Philip Hamm
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