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Phantom Menace DVD vs. Phantom Menace Laserdisc


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#1 of 80 Inspector Hammer!

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Posted October 06 2002 - 08:37 PM

I'm with Terrell on this one, i've seen 'SW EP1' on both LD and dvd, no contest IMO. The dvd slams the LD into the ground in terms of clearity, cleanliness, absense of video noise, color accuracy you name it. I can see the EE in the video, but i'm not bothered by it as much as most people.

One member above brought up a very good point too, he said that if it's necessary to go hunting to the ends of the earth for a high end LD player just to beat out the dvd's video on any average dvd player you can buy, that's not a very good argument for the merits of LD IMO. In fact, it proves the point actually...

The 'SW EP1' LD video looks better DEPENDING ON WHAT KIND OF LD PLAYER YOU PLAY IT ON, the 'SW EP1' dvd video looks better ON JUST ABOUT ANY DVD PLAYER. It doesn't even win when comparing resolution between the two, so that arguments out the window as well. So you see Rachael, by citing all of these high end LD players that you've seen this film on, you've inadvertantly shot your argument in the foot.

As for the audio, again i'm with Terrell. The LD is INSANLY loud and harsh, the dvd is more refined and pleasing with no loss of the intended sonic impact the sound mixers had in mind.

You have to keep this in mind, just because an audio mix is louder and contains more LFE as the LD does in this case, it does not necessarily mean that it is correct. Even though the audio on the LD was THX certified, they went overboard with it big time.

A mix can be subtle and still be thrilling.

I love a good audio mix as much as anyone here, but not at the expense of bleeding eardrums and damaged building foundations. Posted Image
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#2 of 80 Inspector Hammer!

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Posted October 06 2002 - 10:12 PM

Also, their will be no LD of 'SW EPII' to compare it with either, so we won't see these arguments over that title.

If everything i've been reading about that dvd is true, and i'm sure it is, anyone who finds fault with THAT transfer needs to have their eyes examined.
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#3 of 80 Inspector Hammer!

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Posted October 06 2002 - 11:15 PM

Mattias,
just about everything in your first paragraph in your response to me is completly false, but I won't go into that here as it's not the place to do so.

My point is very simple, the video on the dvd is superior to the ld's and you don't need a high end ld player to see that.

LD cannot touch dvd on a properly calibrated progressive scan, and anamorphic set-up. To argue the contrary is futile and even a bit silly.

Listen, this entire thread boils down to this, LD just doesn't have the resolution to compete with dvd. You can list all your equipment until the cows come home, but none of that will change that simple fact.

LD can step all over dvd when it comes to audio, but for video, LD belongs in the analogue museum with the other fossils. I say that like it's a bad thing but it's not, it'll be in fine company along with vinyl records and 8-tracks. Posted Image
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#4 of 80 Inspector Hammer!

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Posted October 06 2002 - 11:57 PM

As a sidenote, i'm making it sound as if I hate LD, absoutely not true. I had a modest collection of about 90 discs when dvd launched and was skeptical when I first heard of dvd. I thought to myself "How the hell can anything be better than this!?"

But I have eyes, and the proof stared me in the face when I saw my first demo of dvd. I can understand liking LD as a source of nostalgia and the only format to have the 'SW' trilogy and other gems not available on dvd yet.

But as a dead serious competitor to dvd, it just doesn't cut it anymore.
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#5 of 80 Dave Anderson

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Posted October 05 2002 - 12:22 AM

Quote:
Using composite in the computer is not the best way to do it. You will get added noise and softer picture. Maybe you could use a stand alone DVD player a connect it to the computer, then we have a more even ballpark.

Agreed. This isn't even close to a fair comparison. Not to mention a player like my Pioneer LD-S9 is going to make the LD image look a hell of a lot better.
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#6 of 80 cafink

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Posted October 04 2002 - 06:42 PM

Thanks for posting these, Chris!

Quote:
Are these DVD shots anamorphic?

That question doesn't exactly make sense in this context.

Yes, the "Phantom Menace" DVD from which these shots were taken is anamorphic. That just means that the disc uses the format's full 480 lines of resolution for the picture (those who want to get nit-picky might want to note that it's actually less because "TPM" was shot in scope, but let's not confuse matters further), whereas a non-anamorphic version would use just 360.

The pictures Chris posted are not at DVD's full resolution of 720×480 pixels. Chris scaled them down so that they're only 360 pixels tall. So while the DVD itself is anamorphic and contains all the improvements that that entails, such details are lost on the pictures above.

And on a personal note, though I prefer the laserdisc version because it contain's the film's proper theatrical version. In my opinion, this outweighs any advantages the DVD may have.
 

 


#7 of 80 cafink

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Posted October 04 2002 - 07:49 PM

Quote:
I reduced the DVD images from the raw screenshot in size by exactly 50%

I'm a little puzzled about this statement Chris. A raw DVD image measures, in pixels, 720×480. The images you posted are all about 640×360. This means that you reduced them only by about 11.11% horizontally and 25% vertically.

You said you used Power DVD to capture the screenshots in question. I'm not familiar with that particular software (I use WinDVD), so perhaps it is artificially enlarging the screens it captures?
 

 


#8 of 80 cafink

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Posted October 04 2002 - 08:44 PM

Okay, I understand now.

Personally, I like to just grab screenshots at their native DVD resolution. It will result in a distorted image no matter what (too wide if it's 4:3, too tall if it's 16:9), but I like to have the exact original images to work with, and then I can just use my paint program of choice (for me, that's Corel Photo-Paint) to resize them as I choose. It's a relatively trivial matter to resize the images to their proper aspect ratio (either 4:3 or 16:9) if you have a reasonably powerful bitmap editing program.

That's the route I typically go with when posting screen caps to the HTF, because there's less intermediate steps in going from the original to the reduced-sized final picture. No need to deal with the artificially enlarged version, only to shrink it back down anyway.

Anyway, thanks again for the pics.
 

 


#9 of 80 cafink

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Posted October 04 2002 - 08:47 PM

Oh, one more question just for the heck of it…

What paint program did you use to resize the images? Just as some DVD players downconvert a 16:9 image better than others, some paint programs do a better job of rescaling images. I'm just curious.
 

 


#10 of 80 cafink

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Posted October 04 2002 - 09:04 PM

Simple and Straightforward. I like that.

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#11 of 80 Robert Spalding

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Posted October 06 2002 - 05:02 AM

yeah, LD is better than DVD. Right.

#12 of 80 JJR512

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Posted October 06 2002 - 05:23 AM

Do all Phantom Menace LDs have Japanese subtitles? If so, that end my decision process right there. They would be too distracting.

But I'm wondering about these comments about the LD having the "proper theatrical version". Can someone please explain this to me, or at least point me to other threads at HTF that explain this?
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#13 of 80 Grant B

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Posted October 05 2002 - 05:50 AM

I have the Japanese PM and box too. I was wondering if the LD and DVD differ much in content? I assume he added some crap instead of deleting the Rasta Jackass from the film.
Chris
Nice work! I know how tedious it is trying to synch up. I did it once with Stargate (DTS LD). On my elite 79, DVD has a edge in video but the LD blows the DVD away.
But most people know that.
I have heard the Braveheart LD has no EE. Not sure about the DVD; but that would be an interesting match.
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#14 of 80 Rachael B

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Posted October 06 2002 - 05:46 AM

There are occasions where LD's equal or look better than DVD's and this is one of them. I used the RP91 to play the DVD and the LD-S9 and HLD-X9 to play the LD. I don't think the DVD got cheated on playback equipment. The DVD is poorly done, clearly!

I've said this before, but here goes again, if you haven't seen the HLD-X9 play an LD, you have not seen reference Laserdisc playback. DVD may win out over LD most of the time but not all of the time.
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#15 of 80 Rachael B

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Posted October 06 2002 - 02:51 PM

Terrell, I dare say I've seen SWPM on more LD players than anybody on the forum.

CLD's 59, 79, 99, 95, 52, DVL-91, Denon MD-3500, Panasonic LX's 900, 1000U, Mac 7020, LD-S9 & HLD-X9. There's no question that the S9 and X9 play the disc better, none at all. Pioneer quit pushing the video envelope with their U.S. Laserdisc players and concentrated on audio in the last years of the format. Like Mattias said the CLD-99 would be, was in the form of the multi-voltage CLD-99D and another model with 9 in the model # for Nippon, a high midline player on the Asian market. It was positioned, marketing-wise, about like the CLD-704/79 was here, sort'a?

The high-end Asian models are the best. All of the Japanese Muse capable players from Panasonic and Sony will handily outperform the CLD-99 too. The reality is that the CLD-99 is about the 15th best player ever. Mattias and I have gone to great lengths to find the best players. We did our homework.

The CLD-99 plays B & W films about as well as the LD-S9. Put in a colour film and the S9 KO's the 99. The 99's circuitry and comb filter are no match for the S9's or X9's. The truth about the CLD-99's comb filter is that it was their 2nd or 3rd best 3-D comb filter at the time. They put their best in the LD-S9 and HLD-X9. They extract more colour from LD's than I've seen with any other players. CLD's 95 & 97 look real good with composite run into something with a hot 3-D filter but stille considerably less colour fidelity than an S9 or X9.

In 1994, Pioneer took the basic LD-S2 design and made the HLD-X0 for the Japanese market. It was the fist player with AC-3. It weighs 79 lb's (35 kg). It's Muse capable. It think it cost around $7000 new. It's proably the best player ever...? They didn't bother to offer it to the U.S. or Europe. They kept taking orders on the LD-S2 here until 1997, BTW.

The CLD-99 & 97 can't touch the Nipponese players.

SWPM is a very demanding Laserdisc. It's a very noisey disc. The CLD-99 cuts the noise pretty good but can't reveal the colour. CLD's 704 & 79 leave alot of visable video noise especially in the dark scenes. Lesser players do even worse. Few discs are harder to play than SWPM. The X9 and S9 bring out it's best.

Terrell, one could make a very strong argument that the LD-S9 is the player the CLD-99 should of been. The X9 with it's red laser is on an even higher pinnacle. The best players were sold to the more demanding Asian market. Best wishes from Laserland! Posted Image
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#16 of 80 Rachael B

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Posted October 06 2002 - 05:35 PM

Damin, I started collecting LD's back in the 80's. To exploit my collection to the fullest, it made sense for me to tweek my discs with a great player. I stille have atleast 200 films on LD that are unavailable on DVD, not to mention the music and TV classics. I've been VHS-free now for 15 years and I have the chips to prove it!Posted Image I'm all discs all the time, big'uns, little un's, I gets all types. Posted Image Best wishes from Laserland!
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#17 of 80 Rachael B

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Posted October 06 2002 - 06:41 PM

Terrell, I'm not sure the S9 & X9 have the same 3-D filter that's in your set. It is the filter that was in last year's Elite sets. I don't know if they've changed it in ths year's? I would say the pic on an HLD-X9 is 10 to 20% better than the CLD-99. Who better to know than I since I own a CLD-99.

SWPM looks about the same resolution on DVD or LD. The LD has less edge halos by a considerable margin. The LD wins this round but it's a fluke because this particular film has so much digital processing that has dragged down the resolution, or the DVD is down-rez'ed some...? Most 2.35 to 1 films will look considerably better on DVD than SWPM.

The HLD-X9 has D-EXT which adjusts for the correct colour temperature of Japanese NTSC. The HLD-X9 uses a red laser diode that reads through ordinary laser speckling nearly 100% and will minimize or eliminate snow on rotted discs until they getty pretty durn bad. The HLD-X9 has the ace comb filter on board where you can adjust it between 2-D and 3-D to minimize artifacting on your display. The X9's Muse capability means if a disc has performance possibility at the fringe or beyond typical NTSC norms, the player will be able to exploit it, fully.

Feeding the S-video output of the S9 or X9 into an iscan and then into a component break-out cable and finally into a component input on an HDTV works really good. There is no substitute for the colour fidelity of these players. You couldn't be more wrong doubting them. Been there, done that, you just have an oppinion. I have reference LD playback. You do not.

Sure, DVD has a higher performance potetial than LD, but (!), it doesn't always reach it's potential. I certainly don't think the DVD in question reaches it's potential or it would look better than the LD. The Nipponese players are the top of the heap! Posted Image If an LD is good enough to excel, these are the players that can make it possible. Best wishes!Posted Image
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#18 of 80 Rachael B

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Posted October 06 2002 - 07:03 PM

Sorry we've side-tracked into what's possible with LD's and DVD's Chris!Posted Image With a CLD-504 or 59 or DVL-919 the DVD must look 25 or 30% better on DVD displayed anamorphically or there-abouts....? Best wishes!
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#19 of 80 Larry Sutliff

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Posted October 06 2002 - 06:08 AM

I don't own a great Laserdisc Player(it's the DVL700 combi player) so it may be unfair of me to comment, but the Video on the DVD of THE PHANTOM MENACE blows away the Laserdisc on my system. I do have a widescreen television so the anamorphic enhancement probably stacks the deck a bit, but it also looks better on a 27" Phillips I own. In fact, the Laserdisc is one of the weaker transfers of a blockbuster on that medium that I have ever seen. Side One in particular is loaded with grain and noise. The EE on the TPM DVD is distracting during the Tatooine scenes, but otherwise it's a very nice transfer.

The audio on the Laserdisc seems more dynamic, but it's so loud at times that I prefer the more subdued(and still amazing) audio on the DVD.

#20 of 80 Matt Stone

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Posted October 06 2002 - 05:41 AM

Yah...I'm pretty sure the DVD adds around 3 minutes, but I could be wrong.
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