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Sony LD players capable of 50dB+ video?


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#1 of 25 ColinM

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Posted July 02 2002 - 02:56 AM

I've been looking at players quite a bit now, and have noticed in some eBay ads that feature Sony marketing papers that some players are spec'd to produce 50 or 51 dB of video S/N.

Based on that spec alone, if true, they would compare to some of the better/best players on the market.

What keeps these from being great players?

What I do know - No AC-3 out is one handicap, I have yet to see a Sony player with one. And the funky door mechs on some models. Besides that, what're the drawbacks?

Thanks for any replies -

- CM

For the record, I have an MDP-333 (Bad door), a CLD-D406 and an RCA LDR310. No experience with the first 2 yet...sitting on the shelf.
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#2 of 25 Brian-W

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Posted July 02 2002 - 04:11 AM

the Japanese models tended to be better spec'd than the U.S. versions.

I know the Japanese Hi-Vision (Sony) player achieved an ultra high S/N ratio. But alas, even those players don't have AC-3 out (I have two, they're great)
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#3 of 25 Rachael B

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Posted July 02 2002 - 05:22 AM

Colin, I don't believe Sony's spec's! All of them I've seen had alot of video noise and average colour. I once owned the unimpressive 333 and a friend had one of their step-up models and it wasn't much if any better. The build quality on U.S. Sony models is miserable. You know about the doors. It goes beyond that. A repairman told me they were the worst for all breakdowns of every sort. My 333's main board went out and the laser assembly went bezerk and dug a canal in a disc. My best advice is go with Pioneer or the better Panasonic models. Sony sent low performance units to the U.S. Best wishes!
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#4 of 25 ColinM

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Posted July 02 2002 - 05:58 AM

Thanks, folks. Mucho Apreciado!

I do like the looks of some models (physical attraction)....

- CM
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#5 of 25 Philip Hamm

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Posted July 02 2002 - 06:09 AM

I had the MDP650. In 1995 it was their $899 list absolute top of the line player with all the bells and whistles, a great look, and a fantastic remote. I thought I was getting a bargain at $550 for a floor model.

The picture was noticibly inferior on my 27" Sony Trinitron TV when compared to my $299 Pioneer CLD-S201.

I sold the MDP-650 for $450 and got a CLD-D704.
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#6 of 25 ColinM

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Posted July 02 2002 - 06:42 AM

You know, I run a 27" trin and the RCA (Pio) looks so good I wonder why I keep buying players.

This weekend I plan on tearing everything apart to install the 406. I hope I'm impressed.

I know my ass'll be flatter, now that I've got a flipper.

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#7 of 25 Dave_P.

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Posted July 02 2002 - 12:28 PM

I believe all the Pioneer 7-series had 50db+ s/n.

#8 of 25 Rachael B

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Posted July 02 2002 - 01:56 PM

Colin, I aggree that Sony players are handsome. It's a shame they have so little substance. Don't expect a great pic from the 406. They cut some corners to give it auto-flip and all the audio outputs. They cut corners on the video quality, seemingly. It's a 49 db player. BTW, the 333 is a better CD player than LD player. You might consider using it as such. Best wishes!
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#9 of 25 Tony Kwong

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Posted July 02 2002 - 02:54 PM

The only Sony LD player, I would suggest you look at are the Japanese HiVision models. They seriously built these players. They were one of the first HiVisionLD players because they were the company who started HiVisionLD. All other Sony LD players are just junk. Panasonic even OEM this player as the LX-HD20.

Rachael, you should seriously consider the Sony HIL-C2EX as you 7th LD player!!!Posted Image

On another note... anyone here have VHD? I still have a lot of karaoke, concerts and movies on VHD! I have 100? or so VHD titles. Too bad my old 1983 Toshiba VHD player just died....

tkmedia
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#10 of 25 Rachael B

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Posted July 03 2002 - 02:04 PM

Tony, about the only LD player I have much intrest in is the HLD-X0. TK Chan and Brian think it plays Muse discs considerably better than the X9. Best wishes!
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#11 of 25 Brian-W

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Posted July 03 2002 - 05:09 PM

Quote:
Tony, about the only LD player I have much intrest in is the HLD-X0. TK Chan and Brian think it plays Muse discs considerably better than the X9. Best wishes!

We know the X0 plays MUSE discs unlike any other MUSE player.

However, those that want a back up to a Pioneer HLD-X9 or who can't afford an X9, the Sony Hi-Vision players (HIL-C2EX is recommended) are as good as the X9 w/NTSC playback. As for MUSE playback, the X9 edges the Sony Hi-Vision, but barely.
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#12 of 25 Tony Kwong

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Posted July 03 2002 - 06:30 PM

I think that the sony is an unmistakable bargain bang for the buck! I've never seen an X0 so I really have no idea what that output looks like. I use to own the Sony C2 and I compared it to a X9 and a Panasonic HD20, they were all very close to being the same. HD20 exactly the same as it was a clone as far as I can tell when opening it.

I still have 2 movies on Hi-Vision Legends of the Fall and River Runs Through It, are these considered good quality compressed disk? When I watched these 2 movies years ago on the Sony C2EX with a mitsubishi decoder on a Sony CRT projector they looked amazing!Posted Image

Do the MUSE decoder make a large difference? What are the best looking Hi-VisionLD "Films"? Hopfully I'll get my X9 soon....
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#13 of 25 Rachael B

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Posted July 03 2002 - 09:14 PM

Tony, I have both of those discs. In my modest little collection I consider them to be middle of the pack. Brian raved about A RIVER RUNS THROUGH IT and I aqquired it and I was not impressed. With my equipment (Sony 36" XBR 450, X9, and Victor HV-MD2 decoder) it has beacoups of video noise in the indoor scenes. It has numerous motion distortions too. Maybe it projects better? The outdoor scenes are often stunningly beautiful.

I consider LEGENDS OF THE FALL to be a notch better. It has some problems with green-tinted shadows on indoor scenes and sometimes in outdoor scenes. It can be particularly noticable on faces. Green video noise or a slightly green overall tint seems to be short coming of the format. LOTF looks better than the DVD for most of the film but it has it's bad spots.

For my equipment, STARGATE looks the best. It has a very slight green tint but no episodes of noise in the dark scenes and I don't recall any motion distortions. It blows away the crappy non-anamorphic DVD's.

JURASSIC PARK has about 6 or 7 scenes where the green tinted shadow mars the image momentarily, but besides these brief episodes it is stunning! I never seen a DVD with colour close to as good. I'll never watch a DVD of JP again. Posted Image

CHAPLIN with it's unsaturated colour is awfully nice. There is a rather noticable motion distortion about 1 minute into the film. I don't remember any others. There is a scene where Chaplin ( Robert Downey Jr. ) wears a checked coat and the small checks wiggle alot. It's the worst dot drift I've seen on Muse LD but the DVD does the same at that scene. Besides these two scenes the disc looks awfully good. It easily tops the DVD.

UNIVERSAL SOLDIER looks above average. I haven't seen the DVD, but my bet is the Muse is better. I got this disc for $25. That's the only reason I bought it! I intend to watch this silly thang again, someday.

Most miserable Muse disc: BUGSY! It was the 1st release and it shows. It's horrible. I've never seen the NTSC LD but it must be better.
BASIC INSTINCT has some absolutely horrid indoor scenes and all the outdoor scenes are flawless. There are far too many indoor scenes... Brian sez that A FEW GOOD MEN is a real stinker. I haven't seen it.

The so-called scenery discs look better than the films. Reportedly, this is because they were shot on digital video tape. FISHFACE (Okinawa Underwater) is the best looking home video that I've seen. Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image No DVD has the colour or detail of this disc and I doubt any ever will. The finest details of the fish are preserved. Each species of fish has a chapter stop and a list of the fish is included, in English no less. Granted, I haven't seen D-VHS yet because nobody carries it in this town...

SONG OF AFRICA looks close to as good as FISHFACE. The CHERRY BLOSSOMS disc that Brian loaned me was a notch behind these two but stille very good. CHERRY BLOSSOMS is boring as hell though. Flowering trees set to flute music gets old fast.

There are obviously some equipment biases with Muse reproduction. Nobody I've ever discussed the subject with has had enough different decoders to determine how much they affect results. I think Brian has aqquired a Victor decoder like mine and he might have an oppinion here...? BTW, he has the Sony 3000 too.

The HLD-X0 is said to minimize the green tints and noise. If I had an X0 I might buy a few more discs. Brian does the X0 eliminate any of the motion distortions?

Tony, I'm building a condo presently and I'll have room for a projector. Posted Image Next year after I'm over the economic shock I hope to install one. I hope my Muse reproduction goes to a higher level. Did you see the copy of E.T. that Nicolas S. had on E-bay recently? It sold for $500! I wish I could of got my grubby hands on it!!! Best wishes!

P.S.- your turn Brian!
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#14 of 25 Mattias_ka

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Posted July 04 2002 - 02:50 AM

I will also soon be one of those with a HLD-X0 player.
But I'm not so interested in MUSE but I have not heard anything about the difference between the MUSE decoder's, because like everything else there ARE difference, and I believe that the biggest difference in MUSE picture lies there.

#15 of 25 Brian-W

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Posted July 04 2002 - 05:02 AM

Wow, where do I start.......?

Okay, all my viewing took place on a JVC G-11 front projector, and an NEC PD1 Plasma panel (my primary viewing equipment).

If anyone wants a FAQ on MUSE LD, email me (DO NOT PRIVATE MESSAGE ME....I never seem to get them until months later).

I have a Sony HIL-C2EX and a Pioneer HLD-X0. I owned an additional Sony C2 and a Pioneer HLD-X9 at one point as well. For MUSE decoders, I own a Sony MSC-3000 and MSC-4000. I also at one point had a Victor MD1 MUSE decoder.

Now onto Rachaels comments.......

Quote:
Brian raved about A RIVER RUNS THROUGH IT and I aqquired it and I was not impressed. With my equipment (Sony 36" XBR 450, X9, and Victor HV-MD2 decoder) it has beacoups of video noise in the indoor scenes. It has numerous motion distortions too. Maybe it projects better? The outdoor scenes are often stunningly beautiful.

Can you see this? Rachael hates me !!! Posted Image

Actually, I thought that dark scenes were a shortcoming with all MUSE movie discs, and they are not. But when I recommended it to Rachael, I was blown away by the outdoor scenes, and hence why I recommended it. Rachael backs this up. So hopefully not a complete waste.....

We'll get onto the green tint issue soon......

Quote:
I consider LEGENDS OF THE FALL to be a notch better. It has some problems with green-tinted shadows on indoor scenes and sometimes in outdoor scenes. It can be particularly noticable on faces. Green video noise or a slightly green overall tint seems to be short coming of the format. LOTF looks better than the DVD for most of the film but it has it's bad spots.

I will second this and say LOTF is probably the only good looking Sony movie MUSE LD. The rest are not the most stellar material, but I liken most of the problems to the transfer (usually way too dark) and not the format.

Quote:
Most miserable Muse disc: BUGSY! It was the 1st release and it shows. It's horrible. I've never seen the NTSC LD but it must be better.

Nope, sorry, I need a judges ruling here......The correct answer for the most miserable MUSE LD (movie) is Top Gun. Biggest disappointment, and one of the movies I was most looking forward too.

The whole film is dark. You can't see anything, even in daylight scenes! What were they smoking? Avoid at all costs. The DVD is inherently better (but the color of the MUSE LD when you can see it is pretty nice)

Quote:
BASIC INSTINCT has some absolutely horrid indoor scenes and all the outdoor scenes are flawless. There are far too many indoor scenes... Brian sez that A FEW GOOD MEN is a real stinker. I haven't seen it.

I've become a MUSE snob.......the outdoor scenes in Basic Instinct are also too dark. But no where near as bad as Bugsy. A Few Good Men looked bad on the Sony demo disc, so I suggested an avoid even though I never owned it (a hard disc to find too).

Quote:
The so-called scenery discs look better than the films. Reportedly, this is because they were shot on digital video tape. FISHFACE (Okinawa Underwater) is the best looking home video that I've seen. ........Granted, I haven't seen D-VHS yet because nobody carries it in this town...

Nope, they are shot in analog. On a big screen it shows. But it still looks absolutely fantastic!

Interestingly enough, I obtained a D-VHS version of FishFace (and Alaska/Dolphin Story) and the MUSE LD is better. Color saturation, and even perceived detail appears cleaner and smoother on the MUSE LD. So these discs stay in my collection.

Quote:
The CHERRY BLOSSOMS disc that Brian loaned me was a notch behind these two but stille very good. CHERRY BLOSSOMS is boring as hell though. Flowering trees set to flute music gets old fast.

I fell asleep during this one. This one was overly soft and was either Betacam upconverted, or it was an old-skool HD camera (more on that in a minute). Blech....and snooze.....

Quote:
There are obviously some equipment biases with Muse reproduction. ...I think Brian has aqquired a Victor decoder like mine and he might have an oppinion here...? BTW, he has the Sony 3000 too.

I'm going to say that my experiences show that the Sony decoders are great decoders, but a bit 'grainy' in terms of picture reproduction. The Victor unit was smoother. I am using the Sony's because all my displays require an RGBHV output which the Sonys offer. But the Victor was also a very good decoder. The Sony MSC-4000 and Victor unit Rachael has are most common. Other decoders exist, but are more difficult to obtain.

Quote:
The HLD-X0 is said to minimize the green tints and noise. If I had an X0 I might buy a few more discs. Brian does the X0 eliminate any of the motion distortions?

The green tint for all intents and purposes is gone with the X0. I don't know why, but it is. Verified with both the Sony MSC-4000 and the Victor HD-MD1 unit.

The Sony HIL-C2EX and Pioneer HLD-X9 both exhibit the green tint problem on fleshtones and dark scenes. I don't know why this is. I am wondering if the Sony HIL-C1 eliminates it. It's a first generation Hi-Vision player, but build quality approaching the HLD-X0.

Motion artifacts also seem to be minimized, but they are not completely gone. I reckon this has something to do with 3:2 pulldown (yep, it's needed on HD too). I haven't tried a 1080p upconverter w/3:2 to verify, but that's my guess.

Quote:
I hope my Muse reproduction goes to a higher level. Did you see the copy of E.T. that Nicolas S. had on E-bay recently? It sold for $500! I wish I could of got my grubby hands on it!!! Best wishes!

P.S.- your turn Brian!

E.T. passes the dark scene test. No green, no mangy artifacts (that I can see), looks very good.

On a separate note, my friend acquired a Sony HDL-2000 (HDVS uncompressed wideband HD) laser player with two discs. One was a disc available on MUSE (Yoshino's Magical Splendor) which looked no different than the MUSE counterpart, and another one with some kind of fresh water fish.

The fresh water fish disc was shot in 1988 on HD cameras that barely topped 700 lines resolution, and well, it shows. Close up shots look very good (not great) while panoramic shots look soft, muddy, and lack detail. Interesting.....

Top MUSE movies I'd recommend based on picture quality:

- River Runs Through It (primarily daylight scenes)
- Cliffhanger
- Back to Future (2 and 3 seem to be weak in picture)
- E.T.
- Chaplin
- Jurassic Park
- Atlantis
- Legends of the Fall
- Backdraft
- Breakfast at Tiffanys

That's my top list of discs in terms of picture quality (not in any kind of order).

Rachael, your turn to roll the dice Posted Image
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#16 of 25 Tony Kwong

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Posted July 04 2002 - 10:23 AM

For my equipment, STARGATE looks the best.

Oh I see Rachael, I guess that't the reason why you want the squeezeLD version?

On a separate note, my friend acquired a Sony HDL-2000 (HDVS uncompressed wideband HD) laser player

Wow! That player is huge! Prob the largest optical video disk player I ever seen. I have some old pictures of that laying around in my old hifi magazines. Can it play regular LD's?

EDIT
almost forgot Nicolas posted the picture of this on alt.video.laserdisc
along with a HDDP-1000

http://home.catv.ne....SonyHDL2000.jpg


Thanks for all you observation on the decoders I have a Sony MSC-3000, and a Mitsubish (clone of JVC Victor). I have the mitsubish unit in storage and it was previously paired with the Sony C2. I thought that the picture was great, but that was before good DVD releases. I found the sony unit for free recently in a local out of business dot.com who's offices were next to mine that were abandoned a year ago... I also got their Victor W-VHS deck, and a 27" HDTVPosted Image Hopefully I'll get the X9 soon so I can play with this stuff again.
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-too much recorded HD not enough time.

#17 of 25 Brian-W

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Posted July 04 2002 - 05:16 PM

Tony, let me know if you grow bored of the W-VHS deck.....
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#18 of 25 Rachael B

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Posted July 04 2002 - 08:21 PM

Brian, I must have done pretty well picking the titles I have. I have a good bit of your recommended list.Posted Image....half. You've seen more of them than me. You need to see STARGATE though. As good as it looks on my stuff, it's got to be a dazzler for you. I want to see E.T. for less than $500!Posted Image Maybe we should start a swap club even if it's only those two titles we loan us....

Tony, I would like to compare the anamorphic LD to the Muse. It ain't easy to dredge them's up though.

Mattias, if you are not going to do Muse maybe you'd be better off with 2 X9's? Brett is having a terrible time getting his X0 fixed. It's so different than other players. My desire for an X0 is a contagious Muse related syndrome. For NTSC I think the X9 is all you need. Well, with your audio equipment the X0 might very well sound especially good? Best wishes cats!
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#19 of 25 Mattias_ka

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Posted July 05 2002 - 03:53 AM

Rachael B, Yes, I'm crazy that's why I already have paid for an extra X9 and will soon get the X0. Daniel Law says that it's almost new, a demo that is hardly used, and they will check it out before they ship.

#20 of 25 Rachael B

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Posted July 05 2002 - 03:41 PM

Mattias, I wish I could persue an X0 before they're all gone, but it's not in the cards right now. If my curtains, satelite system, and other moving expenses come in low, maybe? I love dealing with Daniel too!!!!!! Daniel be da man! Posted Image Best wishes!
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!



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