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Why The Term "Joe 6 Pack" Must stop being used


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#1 of 127 Guest_MaxY_*

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Posted May 10 2002 - 05:37 AM

First I posted this here in Software because I feel it is a software question.

As DVD moves more and more into the mainstream HTF will obviously be getting more and more non-widescrean people interested in becoming members.

Now one of the rules is no advocacy of P&S/Full Frame on this site and that has generally been well respected.

I feel it is pretty obvious that as new people come on board DVD and find this site that there will be more and more that prefer the 4x3 versions of movies.

Right now if they read this site they will quickly learn that they are not respected here and will see many posts refering to them as Joe 6 Pack and calling them stupid and whatever else. So they likely will just leave.

So now the fine people of this forum would do their best to educate them on widescreen but some people just don't care even if they understand and know about widescreen, yet they are going to be interested in DVD buying and what not.

I guess what I am really trying to say is Stop being so insulting to them right now. Just Stop it right now. If you want to have any hope of converting these people to widescreen you can't be insulting them and treating them like they are idiots.

You all preach the advocacy of widescreen which I agree with, but if you really care about the advocacy of widescreen you have to behave yourself with reguards to the people new to DVD that are not widescreen fans.

Now I am not talking about direct attacks on people as that is never and will never be condoned around here, what I am refering to is the blatant insulting manner in which many discuss the people that have not become sold on widescreen yet. This Tude will chase them away and prevent them from really hearing the arguement for widescreen leaving them to turn around and go gripe at their local DVD stores about black bars.

I know many around here that do not talk down to this crowd of people but if you read through the threads about such and such title is P&S only you will usually find at least a few posts that discuss J6P in a very derogatory way. The whole title of Joe Six Pack is Derogatory. and the use of that phrase really should just stop now and the people that try to make J6P remarks and generally refer to them as toothless ignorant uneducated boobs needs to stop.


For instance if you knew somebody that prefered 4x3 DVDs and you wanted them to learn about widescreen DVDs and you sent them to view this forum and ask questions here, I have no doubt that there would be many that treated them with nothing but the utmost respect, but there would be many that took shots at them too. I would not want that to happen to one of my friends.

So what am I saying?

I am saying that you need to think about who might read what you write and post on this forum. You need to consider even if you are not attacking another member are you potentially insulting a reader, a possible widescreen convert? If you really want to help the widescreen format there are many that need to change their tone even in discussions with other widescreen friendly members. Stop Using the Term Joe 6 Pack, and Stop calling this imaginary Joe names. You need to become friendly with the 4x3 people before you can have a positive conversation with one.

And Even if you don't agree with their view point you should still remain friendly.

I don't know sorry for the rant but just reading so much about the mythical Joe has gotten to me lately. I think that some people are not fully comprehending that many read this site without ever posting or even registering and you might be scaring them off from ever doing so.


Max

#2 of 127 OFFLINE   Jim Robbins

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Posted May 10 2002 - 05:51 AM

Having lived in Europe for many years I place most of the blame on the TV networks for never showing films OAR as Europe has always done. Had the networks done this we would have WS TV sets the norm instead of square boxes.
I agree JSP is a bad term, maybe OAR Challenged is the PC one.

#3 of 127 Guest_MaxY_*

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Posted May 10 2002 - 05:58 AM

Could I maybe get one of the Mods to change the title of this thread to "Why The Term Joe 6 Pack Must stop being used"


Jim,
You are right, TV networks have created the way that many have come to exoect to see movies on their TV.

In all honesty it did kind of start in the days when Letterboxing would not have been a good idea because many did not have TVs bigger then 17"-19" at the time.

In todays world most homes have a TV of 25" or better and if you ask me on a set 25" or more I would not see a need for P&S.

Max

#4 of 127 OFFLINE   David James

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Posted May 10 2002 - 05:59 AM

Max:
Well written and I agree with you completely. Some people can only elevate their own stature by reducing the stature of others.

I support your position completely.

#5 of 127 OFFLINE   Vince Maskeeper

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:05 AM

Max,

While I do agree with your basic points, I don't know if I agree for all the same reasons. You seem to site the desire to eliminate the term "J6P" as your main point, and use the desire to welcome new people with different ideas to the HTF as the second point. I will respond to each.

I think, first and foremost the HTF should be a friendly environment- regardless of the reason or the rhyme- this sense of respect should be as absolute as is possible. If someone comes here posing a respectful question- I would hope the membership would answer in kind.

I think, or would at least hope, that HTF members see anyone asking about letterboxing/black bars as an opportunity for education, and would do their best to act politely and offer suggestions on where the poster might find more information.

I think the point that you're missing, at least in my experience, is the J6P tag seems to be applied to those uninterested in learning, or worse- after being shown refuse to admit the advantages of widescreen. It is the willingly ignorant which seem to get slapped with the J6P title here as a general description of the embracing of ignorance, not as a tag of being specifically stupid or slack-jawed.


However, in the end- this forum is Pro-Oar. This is one of the only rules the HTF has in regards to expressing personal opinion (despite what some might rant about us on other boards). If an uneducated person comes here seeking answers- I would hope that they realize that they have classed themselves out of the "J6P" willingly ignorant category just by seeking the answers in the first place. If they take the time to ask the questions- I would use all my power as a mod to make sure they are treated with respect and that members use the opportunity to impart the basic principles of our cause.

The term seems to have become popular as a shorthand for someone who choses to remian ignorant of the purposes of widescreen-- as a result of a lack of true interest in film as an artform. My point is simply that by seeking answers, the idea of J6P ceases to apply. The J6P tag is, and should be, reserved for those who chose to be ignorant of the matter.

I never took it to be a synonym of "moron"- rather took it in the spirit that it started in media/advertsing- which was to denote "common man" status...

I think that some people are not fully comprehending that many read this site without ever posting or even registering and you might be scaring them off from ever doing so.

And, with all due respect, I'm not entirely sure that is always a bad thing. While the HTF welcomes anyone with open arms, in the end this is a forum dedicated to a particular hobby and the interests that go along with that hobby. Not everyone has an interest in that hobby, or the respects that go along with it-- and that's okay. But I would argue that maybe the HTF isn't the best place for that person.

Heck, many of the unkind words aimed at the HTF of late on those "other boards" seem to stem from our overwhelming size and growth. New members and broader interests has supposedly lead to a watering down of the discussions as the average member here lately is far less interested in HT, and moreso in "dvd".

But, this is a forum specifically for the pursuit of hometheater, and while we accept that DVD is a major part of our hobby now, and is also reaching the mainstream- I don't think it means that the HTF has to serve the needs of everyone with a DVD player, or should even strive to.

DVD is an element of Home Theater, and thus of this forum-- but to abandon the ideals of HT in order to appeal to the growing audience of DVD-- well I would argue that isn't the purpose of this forum to begin with.

Not everyone who likes DVD needs to be a member here.

-Vince
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#6 of 127 OFFLINE   David Lambert

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:11 AM

Max, I agree with you entirely!

Right at the beginning of the use around here of the term "J6P", I questioned it. But I bowed to the pressure of popular use, not having a better substitute.

However, we must now resolve ourselves to find a better way to describe the people we are speaking of. "OAR-Challenged" may be okay...I'd like to find something better. I'll put my mind to this, but everyone should contribute suggestions.

We need to refer to this sector of the populace in our conversations, but they must read about themselves without feeling set-upon, or - as Max says - they will close their minds to the subject we are trying to educate them on!

Edit: Vince, I didn't see your post until after I put mine up. I resepectfully disagree with you that it's okay to call ANYone "J6P" on ANY level. To someone, WE are all J6P's. I am *definately* a J6P when it comes to cars, to guns, to many aspects of sports, to pets, to coin- and stamp-collecting, to diet and medicine, to clothes/fashions, and to many, MANY other topics I simply do not enjoy spending my time to dwell on.

However, if I decided to take up an interest in home protection, and decided to visit a site I saw in a search engine called, let's say, "Home Gun Forum", I might go in there with an attitude that automatic weapons are wrong, wrong wrong...but that forum advocates that it is every gun's right to be fully automatic as God and the designer intended. I might read their comments about "J6P's who are too ignorant to understand the position of automatic guns", and just decide that the site isn't for me. But how sad for them, that they lost the opportunity for me to even lurk there, never joining, but to read posts that RESPECT my lack of knowledge and are designed to convince me that I should re-think my position!


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#7 of 127 OFFLINE   Joseph DeMartino

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:14 AM

I have been urging that we drop the degrading term "Joe Six-pack" for years. I told a certain Mr. Knapp that we should use "Mike Six-Pack" instead. Posted Image

Regards,

Joe

#8 of 127 OFFLINE   Scott Barnhart

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:16 AM

I also agree with this sentiment completely. Remember, except for those people with limitless financial and time resources, we are all "J6P"'s in some areas of our lives (maybe most?). For example, I drive an econo-box compact car and buy furniture from Levitz. That would definitely make me a J6P in the automotive and furniture worlds. But I wouldn't appreciate being called a moron just because I don't understand all the nuances of fine furniture or cars.
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#9 of 127 Guest_MaxY_*

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:25 AM

Vince,
Well said and I would be the last person in the world to try and change that Pro-OAR stance.

Some of your Points about the term Joe Six Pack may even be correct, but you need to consider that at least some if not most of the people that are new to DVD, might not understand the distinctions you are placing on the term.

Thus someone that might be converted might not ever even post a question here because of the stigma and the constant barage of posts where people that are not Pro-OAR are bashed. I am saying that if you would like to convert more DVD Owners toward widescreen then you need to get into discussions with them on friendly terms. I am not saying that the forum Lose its Pro-OAR stance, I am saying that they might want to consider losing the stance that all non-widescreen viewers are toothless idiots with nothing of use to contribute to this forum.

As for the Bashing of HTF on Other forums, and the reasons, that has very little to do with my point. Yes HTF is Big Yes that does create problems at times, but HTF because of their size is also one of the best places to help in the advocacy of OAR Widescreen releases. Their Sizes is what Lures studio reps to the forum. Their Size is why they would most likely be one of the first online resources/forums to be found by new DVD owners.

I am sorry but with that size comes some added need for this forum to be friendly and try to convert new DVD owners to Widescreen.

I would hate to think that while everyone here preaches OAR and fighting the good fight, you seem to think that HTF does not need to be friendly and do away with derogatory terms like Joe 6 Pack inorder to fight the Good Fight.

BTW Vince, If you ever catch me bashing HTF on any other forum, Please Call Me on it. I have been and hope to remain a long term member of this forum. That is not to say I agree with everything HTF does, but hey I don't run the place.

Max

#10 of 127 OFFLINE   Jon_W

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:27 AM

I find no problem with using the term to describe people who are ignorant of OAR. I seriously doubt that people on this forum are using the term to attack a particular group of people, rather they are using it to make it simple to refer to a known segment of the public that is not commmitted to OAR. The way the term is used is very important. Developmently Challenged has not replaced the word "retard" because it means a fundamentally different thing, but because the way the latter word was used was not at all well intentioned. I see no problem in using J6P as long as people are noting using it to make themselves feel "above" people who for reasons of economics, misinformation, or simple choice watch MAR.
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#11 of 127 OFFLINE   Jesse Skeen

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:29 AM

"Joe Sixpack" is an attitude- "I don't know and I don't care to know" and can be applied to anything- I'm a Joe Sixpack when it comes to cars because as long as it runs and gets me from one place to another, I couldn't care less about its horsepower or other "performance" statistics. I prefer driving an automatic, which car enthusiasts would say is stupid, and I wouldn't pay thousands of dollars for a Porsche when a less-expensive Honda serves the same purpose- I'd rather spend my money on home theater equipment instead. Still, I don't think my attitudes are going to have much effect on the enthusiasts being able to get their high-performance cars. It's the video Joe Sixpacks that say "I don't care if widescreen is how the movie's supposed to be shown, I don't like it!" and cause the enthusiasts to not be able to get certain movies in widescreen.
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#12 of 127 Guest_MaxY_*

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:38 AM

Jesse, Jon,
While I agree that not everybody use the term as a bad word, many here Do and asking newbies that might be converted to understand the finer points of the terms when they might not even know what LOL means yet is being to rough on them.

You need to read some of the comments here about J6P if you don't feel it is being used in a negative way.

You also need to understand that the number of posting members is likely much smaller then the number of unregistered lurkers. So what is said my not insult a member but could very well insult the lurker that may have learned to love widescreen if they had stayed around long enough to learn why.

I am saying not only should we try not to insult other members but also try not to insult the readers/lurkers as well.

You can still be very Pro-OAR without being insulting.

Max

#13 of 127 OFFLINE   Vince Maskeeper

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:42 AM

Max,

Just to be clear, with your original topic header- I thought the second half of your point was leaning more towards changing the scope of the HTF to incorporate the mainstream DVD audience (You original topic mentioning how to handle the future dvd audience, or something to taht effect).

So, my second half of my above post is somewhat off the topic you actually discussed (but a point I've kinda had in mind for a few weeks).

Certainly, I won't disagree that an attitude of friendliness should be important if the HTF seeks to be a "conversion" source, of sorts, for the DVD audience. I have tried to do my best in this regard by being extremelt active in the "basics" are where newbie posters and lurkers alike seem to be concentrated. In addition- I worked to compile the HTF's Primer for HT Newcomers, in which widescreen is addressed in a friendly manner (as the first post).

But I still think the J6P tag is one of "attitude of ignorance" rather than simply not knowing.

-Vince
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#14 of 127 OFFLINE   MartinTeller

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Posted May 10 2002 - 06:43 AM

I suggest we change the term to something funnier... "Joe Boxwine", maybe?

#15 of 127 OFFLINE   Brad Eisenhauer

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Posted May 10 2002 - 07:18 AM

Just like to register my thoughts on the subject.

First, I agree that the term "Joe 6-pack" can be off-putting and derogatory as used by some. However, from a philosophical standpoint, I don't believe it ever serves the purpose of a discussion to restrict the vocabulary used. Offense is usually taken at terms whose scope and meaning is not fully understood.

Pursuant to this, perhaps a simple notice to the readership of this board explaining the meaning of the term as used here. "Joe 6-pack" is just an average guy (or gal.) In the context of this forum, he happens to be uninformed about the technical and artistic issues discussed here. We welcome all those who, by their reading of this board, make an attempt to extricate themselves from that situation. Anyone willing to learn more about our passion is alright by us. A "welcome message" to new readers to this effect might be a good thing.

We're always going on about how the studios ought to educate people about aspect ratios. I think a little education about the terms of discussion here would suit things nicely.

I like JBW idea though. Posted Image Very amusing.
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#16 of 127 OFFLINE   Glenn Overholt

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Posted May 10 2002 - 07:30 AM

No, we do not want people to join that are not pro-OAR. It has been stated here before - - we do want OAR only, and new members should abide by our preference to do so.

As for J6P, it is not a bad term at all. I actually find it to be a little funny. We could use ignorant, but the word is much too harsh. We could call them 4 x 3'ers, but that is almost too technical. Joe remains friendy, but not what this forum is all about. If we were to bow to them, then we'd have daily debates between MAR & OAR. We have enough problems just getting the studios to make movies right, why bring in people that are basically on the studios' side right now?

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Posted May 10 2002 - 07:38 AM

Brad,
I am not looking to restrict the use of the word. The is no rules against lots of words here people would find offensive, but people don't use them because they know they are offensive.

I am simple trying to get people to understand that this term is being used as an offensive term.

As for defining, them you should read Vince's Post on the meaning of Joe Six Pack. While the two of you are close there is a slight difference. You seem to feel it means someone that is not knowledgable, while Vince says it refers to someone that doesn't want to learn.

If you read the Anti P&S threads you will quickly see that most just seem to define it as an A'Hole that does not like Widscreen. It gets used in a very negative manner here and on other forums as well. I just want to get the chance to convert these people before someone insults them and scares them away. Posted Image

Iunderstand that not all use of the term is offensive but so many have used it that way that I now find the term offensive and I am sure that many people you would like to convert have too and never signed up and never posted. They just fade away and go complain about Black Bars to their local Block Buster.


Max

#18 of 127 OFFLINE   SteveA

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Posted May 10 2002 - 07:43 AM

"Joe Sixpack is real, he can't be reasoned with, and he will NOT stop - EVER - until OAR is dead."

Didn't that Kyle character say something to that effect in the movie The Terminator?

#19 of 127 OFFLINE   Greg Yeatts

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Posted May 10 2002 - 07:45 AM

Joe six-pack is derogatory description of the common man used by elitist snobs. As a common man I must object. I much prefer "Don Fifth of Bourbon". This is my drink of choice and I am most offended when I am addressed any other way.

That said, my more garden variety brother, Joe Six-Pack may have trouble seeing the smaller image on the mighty Zenith when viewing a movie in its OAR because of the doubled vision caused by drinking his namesake. This is the reason he prefers pan & scan. His impaired judgment has made him sure, yes sure, that he is not seeing the "big picture" if he views a movie in its OAR. Only careful education may convince him that he is the one missing the big picture.

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Posted May 10 2002 - 07:47 AM

Glenn,
You might not want them to join and I think it needs to be understood that this is a Pro-OAR site. If you would like to continue getting widescreen releases we need to convert people. In order to convert them then we need to have their ear and hopefully not while they are on the defensive.

I don't want to forum to allow for people to avocate 4x3, but I do think they need to be friendly enough that someone could come here and discuss it without being insulted and driven away. I think that if the 4x3 people can come here and respect the Pro-OAR stance and read and particpate here without constantly being insulted then you could eventually turn them in to Pro-OAR people. The more Pro-OAR people out the more incentive there is for studios to give us OAR releases.

I think it is wrong to just bury your head in the sand and ignore and insult these people, and that attitude will surely lead to the defeat of the Pro-OAR people.

Don't just think that when everyone has widescreen TVs the war is over, becuas then it will be OAR fights for 2.35 movies and 4x3 movies (Pre Widescreen Theater Movies) and TV. OAR does not mean 16x9 thuse when everyone has 16x9 TVs there will still be a battle for OAR.

Max