HTF AFI 100 Challenge Revote Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

Okay, here it is. The place to start hashing out the problems and ideas that we will be facing as we try to come up with a fair and reasonable way to alter the AFI 100 list to make an HTF version.
This thread is for AFI 100 Challenge competitors only, although you need not be finished to participate. This is NOT the revote by any means. This is where we decide how we plan to do such a thing.
Here are some issues at hand...
What qualifications do the films need to meet?
Well, this is the AFI Challenge. Edwin and I have already discussed this issue and I think we are in strong agreement that this should still be American films only. This is not the Sight and Sound challenge or the BFI or something. The world is full of great films, maybe the greatest, but we have to stick to something we can handle and that fits with the challenge.
Saying that, what DOES make a film American? I think Kwai and LoA might be removable as not being American films. Maybe Holden's presence in Kwai is enough. Honestly, I don't know. I guess we want to refer to the AFI's guidelines, but this is a chance to fix/remove things that we don't think should be on an AFI 100 list which includes "non-American" films.
What merits should a film have to make the list?
Again, this has been discussed a bit already in the challenge thread among other places. I suggest we start by referring to the AFI page, but we don't have to hold to that completely. We should kick around our ideas, but we should have the criteria solidified before any voting starts to happen.
Historical perspective both in film and society might be considered, innovation might be considered, box office might have some weight, certainly overall film quality will be an important part. There is no "right" combo of these and other qualities, so please discuss. We just want to get everyone on the same page regarding the qualities that OUR list will have. We are "fixing" the AFI's approach, not necessarily holding to it 100% unless we choose to.
How will we revote this list?
Well, this is tricky. My suggestion has been all along that we first vote on a bottom 25 (or 20, something like that). We remove those 25 after totaling everyone's votes. This could be 1 point for each vote, or weighted by it's place on someone's list. I honestly don't know which would be better.
25 is because if it is less then a few "bad" picks might be left on simply because we didn't take enough off. But any more than that and we might find ourselves with too much to undertake. Plus, we should give some consideration to what the AFI already did.
Then we would suggest 25-40 ALTERNATES. Again we would total these up. At this point it would seem that we would have to enforce a rule that all these alternates be seen by everyone as well.
Then we take the alternates AND the films voted off and vote for 25 to be added to the 75 survivors. That means that we could end up with the original 100.
Once we have the 100, we revote the whole list. We could do this all at once, or perhaps in some dramatic fashion like voting for 91-100 first and posting results, etc etc for a week or 2 straight.
What can we do now to speed up the process?
Edwin and I have come to the conclusion that there is still a hella lot of work left here for those willing to try. Remember this is the payoff for working so hard to see all those films, a chance to make some knowledgable choices.
Here are my 2 suggestions.
1) If you have less than 25 to go, start picking your 25. Make sure the total of your films picked plus the number of films you have left to see is no greater than 25 (if that's the number we go with).
If we go only by total votes and not by weight, then we could start doing this right away. You could email me at [email protected] with a subject of AFI 100 vote and we could start getting a "remove" list put together.
If we go with weighted then you would need to be finished to have a final weighted list.
Either way, those finished could start working on this second part.
2) Start working on an alternate list. This could be open to all participants and we could vote very soon on this. Keep in mind that this list would mean MORE FILMS that need to be seen. But if this is where we are headed anyway then the sooner we get this list together the better.
I would suggest that if we start now that we should leave more alternate spots available (thus the 40). If we wait until the challenge is up and have less time knock these others down we might want to keep the alternate list to 25 maybe, just enough to replace the films removed possibly.
Finally, like the challenge itself, the revote is mostly for fun although I guess it will sort of be a HTF top 100 American films list of a sort. We are counting on honesty in this. It's unfair to those that are putting out effort to see ALL the films and unfair to the films if you choose between films without having seen them all.
Okay, the discussion has begun. Let's hear what you other AFI'ers think. These are only early guidelines and there is still plenty of time to establish a different method.
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Greetings from the Humungus! The Lord Humungus!
The Warrior of the Wasteland!
The Ayatollah of Rock and Rollah!
[Edited last by Seth Paxton on November 17, 2001 at 12:14 AM]

Guys,
I'm sorry but I disagree about deleting off films that were on the original AFI list. If you do that then this isn't a revote of the AFI listing but simply our version of the 100 best American films ever made. Another thing to consider is that before voting on the final 100 films, we might want to pull the list of 400 films that AFI used to come up with the final 100 films.
Crawdaddy
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Peter Staddon: "I didn't say you can put 'Monkeybone' back!"

Just wondering if people who had already seen all the AFI films before the HTF Challenge began can take part?
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"It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen"
S&S Challenge: 72 ...24
DVD BEAVER

My DVD Collection

Well here are some of my initial thoughts.

What can we do now to speed up the process?

I realize it's more work, but I also think it's a better voting system to use weighted votes. My intial inclination was to lean towards the 40 alternates. But since I'm going to have to go see every movie I haven't seen on everyone's list of alternates, I guess 25 makes more sense.
For myself, I'm going to develop a weighted list of 40 and send it to you. If we decide only to keep 25, then chop off the bottom 15. If you decide not to weight them, it'll be the same list anyway. I'll also send you my list of 25 candidates for removal (also ordered in case you only use 20).
I really look forward to this.
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13-time NBA world champion Lakers: 1949, 1950, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1972, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2001

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I still say that "The Bridge on the River Kwai" and "Lawrence of Arabia" should be eligible for this listing. Both films were financed to a certain extent and distributed by Columbia Pictures and had main characters played by American Film actors even though some of them like Sessue Hayakawa, Claude Rains, Anthony Quinn, and Omar Sharif were born in other countries. Not to mention American born film actors William Holden and Arthur Kennedy.
Crawdaddy
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Peter Staddon: "I didn't say you can put 'Monkeybone' back!"
[Edited last by Robert Crawford on November 17, 2001 at 08:18 AM]

Of course the easiest (though not the most accurate) way of drawing the line would by english language vs. foreign language.
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13-time NBA world champion Lakers: 1949, 1950, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1972, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2001

Brook, most certainly. Are you on Edwin's list of having already completed it? If not you should have said something before, but I'd say consider yourself in now.
Crawdaddy, I hear ya. That's why we have the thread going, to kick around these concepts of what "our" list will be. A reordering, a fully new list, a repick from the 400, a top 100 totally from our own vote, or a semi-repick from the existing list and others.
I think one central key here is that we expect voters to have seen all the films under consideration before ranking them.
I don't know, maybe that's not totally fair if we consider that the "greater" films will have been seen by more people, and will therefore get more votes. I see flaws in that thinking as well however.

I can see that these discussions are going to be quite a thread in themselves. Hopefully all the debating here will get some of the others close to the end excited about finishing.
George

and also with films like The Good, the Bad & the Ugly

Well, considering Robert's defense of Kwai and LoA, there might be something to say for GBU considering the actors involved as well. Clearly, these lines need to be drawn.
Not unlike the top films of 2000 (or 2001) there are going to be lines drawn in the sand that we won't all agree with. Our goal is to make these lines with consideration to everyone's ideals and with some sporting compromises from everyone. Clearly this is a community thing, not a representation of any one individuals feelings.
It's easy to say "this is what I think". The hard part is saying "this is what WE think". I like my HTF friends and think this will be fun to share with them.

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I'd suggest that anything currently on the AFI 100 and also the more extended AFI 400 (?) should be eligible for consideration. After that any reasonably American film through the end of the year 2000 should be eligible even if not originally on the AFI 400.

What we should do is a two stage voting process.

The first stage should be a nomination stage where we nominate 50 films (or perhaps 100) in no particular order. These should be tallied up into a list of 200 (or 400) films.

We then vote for the top 50 films (in order #1 to #50) only using films on the new 200 film list. First place films receive 50 pts and #50 placed films receive 1 pt., etc. This should nicely tally up to a list of 100 films.

If you feel only voting for 50 isn't suitable, then we can expand it to 75 or 100. But, I think that it'll be easier to regard proper rate to a films ranking by only picking 50. There should be enough diversity among our votes to get 100 films.

I highly doubt I'll see all the AFI 100 films.

I'd rather have a "Essential 100" list that has the 50 most important films of all time (The AFI list is OK, but it has too many movies that really are not that important to cinema...but are good movies.)

The Essential 100 should have movies that are the type that illustrate the art of cinema like in a time capsule.

I might have a list of this on my website...

Here are the 300 movies that didn't make it to the top 100:

20,000 Leagues Under The Sea ( 1954 )

Adam's Rib ( 1948 )

Adventures of Robin Hood, The ( 1938 )

Affair to Remember, An ( 1957 )

Alien ( 1979 )

All That Jazz ( 1979 )

All the King's Men ( 1949 )

All the President's Men ( 1976 )

Americanization of Emily, The ( 1964 )

Anatomy of a Murder ( 1958 )

Animal House ( 1978 )

Apollo 13 ( 1995 )

Around the World in 80 Days ( 1956 )

Atlantic City ( 1956 )

Awful Truth, The ( 1937 )

Babe ( 1995 )

Babes in Arms ( 1939 )

Back to the Future ( 1985 )

Badlands ( 1973 )

Bambi ( 1942 )

Band Wagon, The ( 1953 )

Bank Dick, The ( 1940 )

Barefoot in the Park ( 1967 )

Bataan ( 1942 )

Batman ( 1989 )

Beau Geste ( 1939 )

Beauty and the Beast ( 1991 )

Ben-Hur ( 1926 )

Beverly Hills Cop ( 1984 )

Big ( 1988 )

Big Chill, The ( 1983 )

Big Parade, The ( 1925 )

Big Sleep, The ( 1946 )

Birds, The ( 1963 )

Blackboard Jungle, The ( 1955 )

Blade Runner ( 1982 )

Blazing Saddles ( 1974 )

Born on the Fourth of July ( 1989 )

Boy's Town ( 1938 )

Braveheart ( 1995 )

Brazil ( 1985 )

Breakfast at Tiffany's ( 1961 )

Breaking Away ( 1979 )

Broadcast News ( 1987 )

Broadway Melody, The ( 1929 )

Bullitt ( 1968 )

Cabaret ( 1972 )

Cabin in the Sky ( 1943 )

Caine Mutiny, The ( 1954 )

Camille ( 1937 )

Carmen Jones ( 1954 )

Carrie ( 1976 )

Casino ( 1995 )

Cat Ballou ( 1965 )

Cat People ( 1942 )

Cavalcade ( 1933 )

Chariots of Fire ( 1981 )

Cheat, The (S) ( 1915 )

Children of a Lesser God ( 1986 )

Cimarron ( 1931 )

Cinderella ( 1950 )

Cleopatra ( 1963 )

Color Purple, The ( 1985 )

Coming Home ( 1978 )

Conversation, The ( 1974 )

Cool Hand Luke ( 1967 )

Crowd, The ( 1928 )

Dangerous Liasons ( 1988 )

David Copperfield ( 1935 )

Day the Earth Stood Still, The ( 1951 )

Days of Heaven ( 1978 )

Days of Wine and Roses ( 1962 )

Dead Poet's Society ( 1989 )

Defiant Ones, The ( 1958 )

Deliverance ( 1972 )

Destry Rides Again ( 1939 )

Diary of Anne Frank, The ( 1959 )

Die Hard ( 1988 )

Dirty Harry ( 1971 )

Do the Right Thing ( 1989 )

Dodsworth ( 1936 )

Dog Day Afternoon ( 1975 )

Driving Miss Daisy ( 1989 )

East of Eden ( 1955 )

El Cid ( 1961 )

El Norte ( 1983 )

Elmer Gantry ( 1960 )

Empire Strikes Back, The ( 1980 )

English Patient, The ( 1996 )

Exorcist ( 1973 )

Fantastic Voyage ( 1966 )

Fast Times at Ridgemont High ( 1982 )

Fatal Attraction ( 1987 )

Ferris Bueller's Day Off ( 1982 )

Fiddler on the Roof ( 1971 )

Field of Dreams ( 1989 )

Five Easy Pieces ( 1970 )

Force of Evil ( 1948 )

Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, The ( 1921 )

Freaks ( 1932 )

From Russia With Love ( 1963 )

Fugitive, The ( 1993 )

Funny Girl ( 1968 )

Fury ( 1936 )

Gandhi ( 1982 )

General, The ( 1927 )

Gentleman's Agreement ( 1947 )

Gentlemen Prefer Blondes ( 1953 )

Ghostbusters ( 1984 )

Gigi ( 1958 )

Gilda ( 1946 )

Glory ( 1989 )

Going My Way ( 1944 )

Goldfinger ( 1964 )

Goodbye Girl, The ( 1977 )

Goodbye Mr. Chips ( 1939 )

Grand Hotel ( 1932 )

Grease ( 1978 )

Great Ziegfeld, The ( 1936 )

Greatest Show on Earth ( 1952 )

Greed ( 1925 )

Gun Crazy ( 1950 )

Gunfighter, The ( 1950 )

Gunga Din ( 1939 )

Hail the Conquering Hero ( 1944 )

Hannah and Her Sisters ( 1986 )

Heiress, The ( 1949 )

His Girl Friday ( 1940 )

How Green Was My Valley ( 1941 )

Hud ( 1963 )

Hustler, The ( 1961 )

I Am a Fugitive From a Chain Gang ( 1932 )

Imitation of Life ( 1959 )

In Cold Blood ( 1967 )

In the Heat of the Night ( 1967 )

Intolerance ( 1916 )

Intruder in the Dust ( 1949 )

Invasion of the Body Snatchers ( 1956 )

It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World ( 1963 )

Jerry McGuire ( 1996 )

Joy Luck Club, The ( 1993 )

Judgment at Nuremberg ( 1961 )

Jungle Book, The ( 1967 )

Jurassic Park ( 1993 )

Kid, The ( 1921 )

Killing Fields,The ( 1984 )

Kramer vs. Kramer ( 1979 )

Lady and the Tramp (A) ( 1955 )

Lady Eve, The ( 1941 )

Last Emperor, The ( 1987 )

Last Picture Show, The ( 1971 )

Last Tango in Paris ( 1973 )

Last Temptation of Christ, The ( 1988 )

Laura ( 1944 )

Leaving Las Vegas ( 1995 )

Lethal Weapon ( 1987 )

Letter to Three Wives, A ( 1949 )

Life of Emile Zola, The ( 1937 )

Lion King, The (A) ( 1994 )

Little Big Man ( 1970 )

Little Caesar ( 1930 )

Little Colonel, The ( 1935 )

Little Foxes, The ( 1941 )

Local Hero ( 1983 )

Longest Day, The ( 1962 )

Lost Horizon ( 1937 )

Lost Weekend, The ( 1945 )

Love Story ( 1970 )

Magnificent Ambersons, The ( 1942 )

Man for All Seasons, A ( 1966 )

Man Who Would be King, The ( 1975 )

Manhattan ( 1979 )

Mark of Zorro, The ( 1940 )

Marty ( 1955 )

Mary Poppins ( 1963 )

McCabe and Mrs. Miller ( 1971 )

Mean Streets ( 1973 )

Medium Cool ( 1969 )

Meet Me In St. Louis ( 1944 )

Melvin and Howard ( 1980 )

Miracle on 34th Street ( 1947 )

Missing ( 1982 )

Mister Roberts ( 1955 )

Moonstruck ( 1987 )

Morocco ( 1930 )

Mr. Deeds Goes to Town ( 1936 )

Mrs. Miniver ( 1942 )

My Darling Clementine ( 1946 )

My Man Godfrey ( 1936 )

Nashville ( 1975 )

Night at the Opera, A ( 1935 )

Night of the Hunter, The ( 1955 )

Night of the Living Dead ( 1968 )

Ninotchka ( 1939 )

Notorious ( 1939 )

Now, Voyager ( 1942 )

Oklahoma ( 1955 )

Oliver ( 1968 )

On Golden Pond ( 1981 )

On the Beach ( 1959 )

One Hundred and One Dalmations ( 1961 )

Only Angels Have Wings ( 1939 )

Ordinary People ( 1980 )

Out of Africa ( 1985 )

Out of the Past ( 1947 )

Outlaw Josey Wales, The ( 1976 )

Oxbow Incident, The ( 1943 )

Paths of Glory ( 1957 )

Phantom of the Opera ( 1925 )

Philadelphia ( 1993 )

Pillow Beach ( 1959 )

Pink Panther, The ( 1963 )

Pinocchio (A) ( 1940 )

Planet of the Apes ( 1968 )

Player, The ( 1992 )

Poor Little Rich Girl, The ( 1917 )

Pretty Woman ( 1990 )

Pride of the Yankees, The ( 1942 )

Producers, The ( 1967 )

Quiet Man, The ( 1952 )

Rain Man ( 1988 )

Rambling Rose ( 1991 )

Rebecca ( 1940 )

Red River ( 1948 )

Reds ( 1981 )

Return of the Jedi ( 1983 )

Return of the Secaucus 7 ( 1980 )

Richard III ( 1912 )

Right Stuff, The ( 1983 )

Risky Business ( 1983 )

Road to Morocco ( 1940 )

Rocky Horror Picture Show, The ( 1975 )

Rosemary's Baby ( 1968 )

Run Silent Run Deep ( 1958 )

Safety Last ( 1923 )

Salt of the Earth ( 1954 )

Sands of Iwo Jima ( 1949 )

Saturday Night Fever ( 1977 )

Scarface: The Shame of a Nation ( 1932 )

Scarlet Express, the ( 1934 )

Sense and Sensibility ( 1995 )

Sergeant York ( 1941 )

Seven Year Itch ( 1955 )

Sex, Lies and Videotape ( 1989 )

Shadow of a Doubt ( 1943 )

Shadows ( 1959 )

Shawshank Redemption ( 1994 )

She Done Him Wrong ( 1933 )

Sleepless in Seattle ( 1993 )

Sons of the Desert ( 1933 )

Sophie's Choice ( 1982 )

Sounder ( 1972 )

Spartacus ( 1960 )

Splendour in the Grass ( 1961 )

Stalag 17 ( 1953 )

Star is Born, A (1937) ( 1937 )

Star is Born, A (1954) ( 1954 )

Sting, The ( 1973 )

Stranger Than Paradise ( 1984 )

Strangers on a Train ( 1951 )

Sullivan's Travels ( 1941 )

Sunrise ( 1927 )

Swing Time ( 1936 )

Ten Commandments, The ( 1956 )

Terminator 2: Judgment Day ( 1991 )

Terms of Endearment ( 1983 )

Thelma and Louise ( 1991 )

Thief of Bagdad ( 1924 )

Thin Man, The ( 1934 )

Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo ( 1944 )

To Be Or Not To Be ( 1942 )

To Have and Have Not ( 1944 )

Tom Jones ( 1963 )

Top Hat ( 1935 )

Touch of Evil ( 1958 )

Toy Story ( 1995 )

Trouble in Paradise ( 1932 )

Twelve O'Clock High ( 1949 )

Two for the Road ( 1967 )

Untouchables, The ( 1987 )

War of the Worlds, The ( 1953 )

Way We Were, The ( 1973 )

What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? ( 1962 )

White Heat ( 1949 )

Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolff? ( 1966 )

Winchester '73 ( 1950 )

Wind, The ( 1928 )

Wings ( 1927 )

Within Our Gates ( 1920 )

Witness ( 1985 )

Woman of the Year ( 1942 )

Yearling, The ( 1946 )

You Can't Take It With You ( 1938 )

Young Mr. Lincoln ( 1939 )

It's still missing a lot of movies that I think should belong on there and it doesn't include movies after 1996 or 1997.

~T

I kind of like george kaplan's idea of using "guidelines" rather than criteria in determining whether a movie deserves merit.
As for removing British films? Well, I'm not an expert on this, so I'll leave this to the experts.
I'll be honest, whatever the folks in control decide upon, I'm more than willing to take that up as well. Of course, I'll tell you right now I'm going to be pretty biased come voting time

Again, just so we don't lose sight on this.
This is spawned from the AFI Challenge, not the Sight and Sound challege, etc.
Nothing about it is to be about America is #1, or about excluding others. It's simply the subject of that thread, that list, and a reinterpretation of that list.
One of the PRIMARY reasons for limitation on this thing is that Edwin (for good reason) required that we all SEE the films under discussion. Keep in mind that the challenge wasn't the AFI 400 nominees challege, and if it was there would be about 5 people voting, maybe.
I have no problem with a HTF essential 50, or an essential 50 DVDs, or a greatest foreign films ever list. It's just that none of those lists ties in with the AFI 100 Challenge.
As for taking a look at the full 400 again, I'm open to kicking that around. I 100% think we should at least use it as a guideline.
One other opinion, I'm against using films less than 5 years old. Why? Well because with them being so recent it's hard to put them into proper perspective with regards to the history of American cinema. I think you need to able to step away from a film to more fairly judge it.
And to reinforce that fact, just go to IMDb and look at how many films from the last 3 years are in the top 100 of all time. Yes, we all agree that the last 3 years have been the Golden Era for film. :rolleyes

I'd hate to limit us to the afi 400. If I nominate a film that's not on it, and noone else nominates it, it's not going to make the list of nominees. If 10 people each nominate 25 films, that's 250 films, but only the top 25 of those are going to get included.

Also, while I basically agree that it's hard to put more recent films in proper perspective, I'd still like to be able to nominate films like L.A. Confidential.

But I will also agree to abide by whatever rules we set up. I'm pretty much ready to email you my lists, but I guess I'd better wait until the rules are decided upon.

Okay, now that I have wasted an hour here at work reading the posts, thinking about my ideas and rereading the posts, I am ready to weigh in.

I agree that when it comes time for the final vote of the HTF Top 100, the participants in the vote should have seen all of the films being considered. That would make using all 300 of the films the AFI considered impractical, unless we plan to extend this out a few years. As Seth suggests above, we will need to come up with a list of alternates, perhaps as many as 50.

Here's my two cents on how we should do this. We could each nominate a certain number of films (25-50?) in no particular order for consideration as alternates. Set a deadline for the lists to be submitted. The participants could then chose a weighted list (again 25-50 films?) from the list of nominations for consideration in the final vote. It will take some time for those wishing to participate in the final vote to see the films chosen as alternates. For me that will likely be 95% of the alternates chosen! We then do a final weighted vote of the top 100.

My gut instinct is not to eliminate any of the AFI list from consideration. I certainly have the list of ones I would eliminate, but that will be reflected in the final vote anyway.

Of course this is only my opinion.

Jon

I like the idea of everybody voting for an additional 50 films and then adding the top 50 vote getters to the original AFI list. There probably isn't a need to remove any from the AFI list as the "less popular" films will just not get voted for when we choose the top 100 out of 150.
We may want to do two rounds of voting at the point. For instance, everyone vote for the top 100 so that 50 are removed from the 150 list. Then everybody votes again to rank the final 100. It probably won't matter much which way you do it, though.
I do think it is important that we stick by the rule of seeing all films even when we extend the list to 125-150. That being said, how strict is the deadline of the end of 2001 for finishing the AFI 100. I know I will be cutting it close.
Anyway we do it, this should be a lot of fun!

Brook, I have added you to the list of finishers.

What can we do now to speed up the process?

I agree with each participant submitting 25 films coming off and on. There is no need for a revote for the films coming off because the population is limited to 100. Whatever films getting the top votes of being eliminated will come off right away whether its 25 or 50, whatever we decide.
From the list of replacement films, we will probably need to tally up all of the films submitted and then limit it to 100 via another vote. The reason for this is that we cannot have a possible universe of 625 films (25 participants @ 25 replacements each) to choose from. Everyone will then be given a chance to watch all 100. A third vote will then be cast to determine which films will move on as our definite replacements to the AFI original list (25 or 50).
Just my thoughts for now. This will be quite a challenge in itself.
~Edwin

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I think Edwin's method is pretty good, but an additional 100 movies may be too many. We're not going to replace every movie on the list, and probably not more than a third. I would suggest 50 instead alternates instead of 100.

Also note that if we have 25 picking 25 there won't be anywhere near 625 total movies. There are going to be a lot of duplications on these lists.

I definitely agree with Seth that we need to establish a cutoff date that eliminates current films from the selection, for the same reasons. I believe we should use the same cutoff date as the original AFI 100 List, which eliminates any films made after 1996.

- Walter.

A pre-1997 cutoff year is fine by me too.

~Edwin