Why I am psyched for Return of the Jedi on dvd eventually... (1 Viewer)

todd s · Oct 23, 2001

No! It is not for the Ewoks. I loved the space battle scene at the end. I know most people disliked this one the most of the original 3. But, it was cool to see all of the different fighters (ie:x-wing, b-wing & a-wings).

Neil Joseph · Oct 23, 2001

I agree. I loved the space battle as well. I love the whole movie actually. I like when the republics' ships come out of warp just short of Endor for the attack on the deathstar then they realize the shields were up. I love the combination of various scenes (the space battle, the battle on Endor, and the duel between Vader and Luke). Great stuff.
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Jeff Adkins · Oct 23, 2001

I still can't help but wonder how great the film would have been had David Lynch not turned it down.
Jeff

Britton · Oct 24, 2001

Maybe we could've gotten Dennis Hopper as the frequently swearing Emperor and the Ewoks could've danced around like the Twin Peaks midget.
[Edited last by Britton on October 24, 2001 at 01:17 AM]

Roland Wandinger · Oct 24, 2001

ROTJ is the best Star Wars movie of them all! My all time favorite movie!

Iain Lambert · Oct 24, 2001

I'll have to say that despite being a Lynch fan (I'd put Blue Velvet over Jedi in any all time greats list) I'm really glad he didn't get it. The Star Wars universe isn't ready for his particular brand of genius, and I strongly suspect it would have ended up like Dune, only more so, with the studio saying 'we love your work, thats why we hired you. Just don't do anything even slightly weird or freak the kids out, ok?'

Jeffrey Forner · Oct 24, 2001

I've never understood why people were so down on Return of the Jedi. It's a highly underrated movie.
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Lou Sytsma · Oct 24, 2001

Well Jeffrey for me there a couple of reasons.
This movie is basically the first redone with a bigger budget. I know Lucas wants to repeat themes but the creation of a second Death Star is a sign of creative bankruptcy. Surely he could have thought up something different!
Ewoks - a foreshadowing of the kiddie element that Lucas has continued in TPM.
The start of the multiple battle scenarios in the last act.
This trend annoys me because it is a cheap device to throw in SFX shots rather than develop characters we care about.
Even though the space battle scene is technically more impressive than the one shown in TNH it plays like a video game sequence. I don't know 98% of the combatants and have no emotional ties to them. Contrast that to TNH which concentrated on Luke and gave us something to hang our emotional hat on.
This multiple thread technique is a writing copout. The same thing happened with the Batman movies. The first one was the best because there was only 1 villian. The rest had too many villians which blunts the focus of the story and character development.
Another pet peeve of mine was the offhand way in which Boba Fett was finished off. Lucas used his comic approach of having the hero bumble his way through an action piece and yet still save the day. Another annoying trend he used ad nauseum in TPM.
Based on what I'm hearing about Episode 2, the cavalier dismissal of Boba Fett in ROTJ is going to seem like an even bigger copout than before.
You wanted to know why people are usually down on ROTJ - hope these thoughts help explain why.
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[Edited last by Lou Sytsma on October 24, 2001 at 07:31 AM]

Rob Gillespie · Oct 24, 2001

I heard someonce once say that Jedi is the weakest of the three films but has some of the best individual parts. I think that's very true.
The space battle has never been bettered. Absolutely gorgeous shot dynamics going on in there. Perfectly paced. The only real downer is the destruction of Vader's ship, which really does look bloody awful.
But I think my favorite scene has to be where Vader is reaching into Luke's mind and his following 'defeat' at the hands of his son. Williams' score in that scene is unbelievable. Fabulous stuff.

Richard Kim · Oct 24, 2001

But I think my favorite scene has to be where Vader is reaching into Luke's mind and his following 'defeat' at the hands of his son. Williams' score in that scene is unbelievable. Fabulous stuff.

Agreed. Those scenes were the best part of ROTJ. When Luke snaps and fights Vader with that epic music playing is my favorite scene and perfectly sums up the SW saga for me. These scenes will hold much greater meaning once the prequel trilogy is finished.

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Michael*K · Oct 24, 2001

quote: ROTJ is the best Star Wars movie of them all![/quote]
NOT!!! Clearly the best film in the series is The Empire Strikes Back. Return of the Jedi has it's moments, but I loved ESB all the way through, especially its dark ending. I know many people's opinions on The Phantom Menace are based almost soley on their hatred of Jar-Jar Binks. In the same way, I must admit that much of my indifference towards ROJ is due to those damned Ewoks!

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--Mike
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[Edited last by Michael*K on October 24, 2001 at 09:15 AM]

Tom-G · Oct 24, 2001

quote: NOT!!! Clearly the best film in the series is The Empire Strikes Back[/quote]
Again--Not! Clearly the best film is A New Hope. It is the one that started it all and revolutionzed the movie industry. It is also the one that doesn't rely on seeing the other films, i.e. it is self-contained.
quote: I know Lucas wants to repeat themes but the creation of a second Death Star is a sign of creative bankruptcy. Surely he could have thought up something different![/quote]
Since this creation is a sign of "creative bankruptcy" please cite some examples that would have been better.
Sure, he could have thought of something different. The second Death Star is most defintely not a sign of creative bankrutpcy. The second Death Star showed just how tyrannical the Empire was. The Empire was able to do what they wanted, when they wanted. To maintain that stranglehold on the galaxy, it seems more likely that the Empire needed the threat of destroying planets.
quote: Ewoks - a foreshadowing of the kiddie element that Lucas has continued in TPM.[/quote]
Since when was Star Wars ever geared towards adults? On the contrare, it has always been geared towards a general audience, hence the "PG" rating.
quote: This multiple thread technique is a writing copout.[/quote]
Really? It seems to me that is more challenging to write in such a manner. I didn't hear anyone complaining about the writing in Traffic (which is a great film).
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
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[Edited last by Tom_G on October 24, 2001 at 10:15 AM]

Richard Kim · Oct 24, 2001

Also, if you listen to the TPM commentary, George Lucas likes to use the multiple threads in his movies, like in American Grafitti, and ANH.

Roland Wandinger · Oct 24, 2001

Even though the space battle scene is technically more impressive than the one shown in TNH it plays like a video game sequence.

I would like to see that videogame from 1983 which plays like those scenes. Easy to say in 2001!
For me all the scenes in the Emperor's throne room beat everything seen in the previous two parts (the use of colors there ...great!). Also the space battle sequences (ahh..the love to detail) still aren't topped today in any movie.
And ROTJ has the best score of them all!

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Ross Williams · Oct 24, 2001

Jedi is the weakest of the three films but has some of the best individual parts.

This is about the best explanation possible for this film. The film has many wonderful individual parts, while at the same time having so many horrible moments, that the film is dragged down with them. Since it's release I've put Phantom Menace and Jedi on the same level. Each having their place in the Star Wars saga, but each being marred and overshadowed by their bad momments.
Obviously I don't have to explain the bad moments in Menace, but here we go for Jedi. I haven't seen the film in a couple years, so I'm sure I'm missing a few things.
#1 The Ewoks. I don't really mind them as a species, they're cute, I don't care. I'm fine with Han and his group getting captured by them and then taking up residence in their village. What I hate most about them, is that they beat a troup of highly trained Stormtroopers using advanced weapons with sticks and stones, and only one shown casualty. The entire battle scene between these groups makes me grind my teeth in annoyance every time I watch it. It's completely unbelievable.
#2 Harrison Ford has never looked more bored. This is by far the worst performance of his career. It's no wonder they didn't continue the series on from this point, I think he would have died from boredom. Lucas gets better performances out of his computer generated characters than he does from Harrison in Jedi.
#3 Bubba Fett's demise. Such an undignified death for such a bad ass character.
#4 Luke fighting the Rankor. This by far the worst F/X of the whole series. Even as a kid I thought this scene looked funky. If anything needed to be fixed by the Special Editions, this was it. Why Lucas didn't, confounds me.
#5 The explosion of the shield generator. I love how Han and the others run about 50 feet away and jump behind a log. (I think it was a log, correct me if I'm wrong.) And then they cut to a wide shot of the explosion as it engulfs a 1/4 of the moon. Uh... yeah... I think they're all toast.
#6 Special Edition version of Jabba's band. Before it was pretty short and only slightly annoying. Now it's probably the 2nd most annoying scene in the entire series. (The 1st obviously being Greedo shooting first.) Jar Jar has nothing on that damn singer.
Those are my complaints. I still enjoy the movie as a part of the series, but if this was it's own enity, believe me it wouldn't be regarded as a classic.
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Michael*K · Oct 24, 2001

Clearly the best film is A New Hope. It is the one that started it all and revolutionzed the movie industry. It is also the one that doesn't rely on seeing the other films, i.e. it is self-contained.

These are the reasons that make it the best? Puhhhhlease! Just because a movie "starts it all" doesn't make it the best. The Godfather Part II, Road Warrior and Terminator 2 were all superior to their predecessors. The storytelling and artistic design in ESB were much improved over Star Wars. I know several people that saw Empire Strikes Back before A New Hope and they had no problem following the story. The few questions they did have regarding the original film were relatively minor: i.e. "What's with that old fart that appears as a ghost?"

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--Mike
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Carlo_M · Oct 24, 2001

Jedi is the weakest of the three films but has some of the best individual parts.

Never heard it put this way before, but now that I read this statement, the more I agree with it.
My opinion for the best of the original trilogy is: The Empire Strikes Back PRE-S.E!!! No wussy Luke scream. The inclusion of "Bring My Shuttle!"
I agree with the above post that said special deference has to be given to "the one that started it all" and he gave great examples: Star Wars (not calling it ANH because that wasn't there in the first prints), Godfather & Mad Max. Although they did start the ball rolling, I find their sequels to be the superior films. Sure, they are dependent on the originals, but as a piece of work & art, I find the second movies to surpass the originals.
YMMV.

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Dan Brecher · Oct 24, 2001

Jedi? 2hr rescue mission, HUGE space and ground battle with a lightsaber duel thrown in for good measure! I love it.

Dan (UK)

Tom-G · Oct 24, 2001

quote: The Godfather Part II, Road Warrior and Terminator 2 were all superior to their predecessors. [/quote]
I vehmently disagree. While all of those movies are good, they are inferior to the originals in regards to story. In the case of T2, it is the better special effects film, but the original has the better story. Moreover, each of those films could not have been made without the original.
I can't think of one series of movies where the sequel is better than the original. Not even Aliens.
quote: The storytelling and artistic design in ESB were much improved over Star Wars.[/quote]
Examples please?
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493
[Edited last by Tom_G on October 24, 2001 at 02:28 PM]

Chad R · Oct 24, 2001

The biggest problem of Jedi is its repetition. I've never had a problem with Ewoks (love 'em) and love most of the effects, but the damn thing just seems caught in a loop.
First, there's the whole second Death Star thing. Sure, if it almost worked the first time except for the one flaw, do it again and remove the flaw. But as far as storytelling goes it's boring. We've already seen an attack on the death star. Sure this one was better, but it just seems like a second draft. Not to mention that its destruction in both cases involve flying down a corridor and delivering a couple of well placed torpedo hits to bring the whole thing down.
Then, there's the setup at jabba's palace. First the droids show up, meet Jabba and get 'captured.' Next. Leia and Chewie show up, meet Jabba and get 'captured'. And if that wasn't enough, Luke shows up, meets Jabba and gets captured. They all basically knock on the front door and are 'invited' in. Very repetitious.
Then there's the 'revelation' that Luke and Leia are sibings. Besides that no one I knew (and I was in elementary at the time) had any doubt before going into the movie that Leia was the 'other one' Yoda spoke about, it happens at length where Ben 'tells' Luke. Then later in another protracted scene, Luke tells Leia. Sure she needed to be told, but the audience doesn't need to be told again, and certainly not at the lengths that it happens both times. Both of these scenes are overlong and the second is just superfluous audience info. Thankfully, when Leia tells Han at the end it's short, but it's no less extraneous information for us to hear again.
BTW, I still don't understand the following Boba Fett has based on the movies we've seen him in so far (I have no idea what he's involved in in Episode II) when all he does is stand behind Vader in Empire and get his butt kicked by a blind guy in Jedi. I wouldn't consider that a complaint against Lucas, but reason why I didn't think (and still don't) much of the character.

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Why I am psyched for Return of the Jedi on dvd eventually... (1 Viewer)

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