SVS on Music vs. REL (1 Viewer)

KeithR · Apr 17, 2002

Looking to hear comments/opinions. I am thinking of integrating a new sub for HT, and want to play with using it with my 2 ch. tube system (all Cary). However, my Dyns are fast, and don't want to hear the sub a mile behind....they would be crossed over around 40hz.

Oh yeah, no room for two subs.

Mark Leitch · Apr 17, 2002

The big advantage of the REL is their funky hookup. Use it directly connected to your amp, no need for an external crossover, can run your mains full range.

I do not think the RELs can touch the SVS when it comes to pure output... but that depends on how much you need.

m.

Barry Barnes · Apr 17, 2002

The SVS are pretty good for music. I didn't think they were quite as good as some I have had or heard (I have not heard the REL) but they do okay. Their real strength is in their output. I didn't find them slow necessarily, just not particularly articulate throughout the upper bass regions. To my ears they were kinda congested up there. Down low they sound very good muscially. Up higher, they don't quite mesh as well with my current setup. I remedied this by lowering the crossover point to about 60 and that made a big improvement.

John Desmond · Apr 17, 2002

My favorite affordable sub is the ACI Titan II. We've done extensive comparison with the REL Storm III and found the Titan II to be the clear winner in power, control and integration. REL builds a great sub, but ACI has the advantage, like SVS of selling direct. I've not heard the SVS so I can't comment on it. Owning a pair of Titan IIs I can tell you they integrate seamlessly and have a lot of power for their size. The only thing I've heard that I like significantly better is the Aerial, and it is about 4 times the price. ACI also has a new, smaller sub called the Force which can be easily stacked for higher output requirements.

Frank_S · Apr 17, 2002

John said, Quote "We've done extensive comparison with the REL Storm III and found the Titan II to be the clear winner in power, control and integration."
It sounds like the Titan is a very nice sub. I own the Rel Storm III and an SVS 20-39PC. I use the Rel for 2 channel because it has the neutric speakon connection which is a very simple way of connecting to your power amp.
I also have it crossed at a very low 22hz. It blends beautifully at this almost ridiculously low setting, you don't even know the sub is turned on. It IS apparent that it
is doing its job by offering much more slam in the lower octave. Room nodes, standing waves,etc play havoc with anyone trying to integrate a sub with mains and the Rel has the best, easiest, and most versatile method I've seen.

MarkO · Apr 17, 2002

The SVS is not the Holly Grail of subwoofers. Its simply not as musical as the Strata or the Titan. The SVS adds too much of its own weight and interfears when its not suposed too. Another words,, it dosent blend as well. The SVS is a great sub no doubt about it, but it cant live a double life and neither can the REL or the Titan. All three have thier weak and strong points.

SVS-Ron · Apr 17, 2002

Mark,

I'm curious. What sort of SVS did you hear, and how was it calibrated? Not sure where the "holy grail" comment came from but honestly we've never heard this sort of complaint from an SVS owner, or even someone (it happens) that returned one. I'm talking about thousands of users now. I'm sure you know that calibration (or lack of it) of any given sub will largely explain the poor qualities you describe. Suffice it to say you can take the finest piece of gear in the land and make it sound horrible with improper setup (not saying this was certainly the case, but I'd have to say it's likely given my own experience with our products).

Get with me off line if you want, I'd really like to know more about your experience and the circumstances.

Ron

Barry Barnes · Apr 17, 2002

Mark,

I'm curious. What sort of SVS did you hear, and how was it calibrated? Not sure where the "holy grail" comment came from but honestly we've never heard this sort of complaint from an SVS owner, or even someone (it happens) that returned one. -----------------------------------------------------

Ron. I'm not Mark, but this does bring up a question... Would you say the 16-46 is the "most musical" of the SVS line? I remember an old post somewhere that alluded to that fact. I believe it has something to do with a lower tuning point = better group delay characteristics? Any thoughts on that?

Personally I think the 20-36 does a pretty darn good job all around with music and movies but I feel it could be a little better for music. It just doesn't seem as nimble up there as my other sub and seems to focus more on the lower end bass. I'm not sure if that's a trade off for the amazing amount of low Bass output it has for Movies. OTOH, if I had to choose between a little better up there and a little worse down low I think I'd leave it as is...

If total output volume were not a factor (my 20-39 gets way louder than I need it to) would the 16 Hz model be a slightly better performer for music?

Click to expand...

MarkO · Apr 17, 2002

Ron, we used a test disc called RefCD, a standard RS meter, with sub on an active EQ. I think the EQ was the one you guys sell, the SVS was the middle sized one, dont recall the model number. (This was not my system). The speakers we were trying to mate with the SVS were the Sonus Faber Electa Amator in a music only system. After adjusting, sweeping, moving sub to different locations etc, we just couldent get the SVS to fit as well as his REL or Titan. I wasent tring to say the SVS was a poor Sub. Hell I want one. What I was tring to convey is IMO the SVS leans towards the HT side more than critical music listening. Nothing wrong with that.

Lewis Besze · Apr 17, 2002

I also have it crossed at a very low 22hz. It blends beautifully at this almost ridiculously low setting, you don't even know the sub is turned on

I'm not surprised given the fact that the Rel don't have much output [useable!]below or even at that point.

I'm curious how did you end up with that xo point,also what order filter do you use on both HP, LP?

Click to expand...

Tom Vodhanel · Apr 17, 2002

Remember, the *musical* nature of a subwoofer will also depend on personal preferance to some degree(along with stuff like location,calibration,XO levels,nailing the phase,ect,ect).
The SVs definitely will not be considered the most musical subwoofer in the world 100% of the time. The SVs will not be considered the best HT sub 100% of the time. We just try to keep the % of both arenas as high as we can

A lot of folks prefer a subwoofer that has a slight rolloff down low in the *musical* sense. It has been proven that the lower the bass is...the more decay...and some folks consider *decay* in the room to seem like slow/*un tight* bass.
I don't think this is even a GD issue...as the 20-39 and 16-46 would be so close on the typical music note(which is >35hz) it would matter. In fact...the 16-46 might be thought of as worse musically in this example. It would extend deeper, which would generate even more decay time on some source material. If you are not used to that...it might not sound as *tight* as you are expecting.
TV

rodneyH · Apr 18, 2002

good point, I would assume that the 25 is more musical and the 31 next based on your reasoning (unless you are a big fan of pipe organs)

Ned · Apr 18, 2002

Musical, pfft. This term is getting really old.

I bet if you used the same sub and gradually increased the frequency of a highpass filter, "audiophiles" would say the sound was getting better the more you filtered out. Same sub, just less and less of the lowest octaves that are so "unmusical".

Richard Greene · Apr 18, 2002

Some audiophiles who use small speakers and hate subwoofers brag about "fast bass". My response to that is:

"The bass is so fast I can't even hear it".

When I play my EPOS ES11 satellite speakers without a subwoofer the bass is very "fast" ... however it also

declines 24dB/octave below 50Hz., so I'm missing a full octave of bass (two octaves according to a bassnut I know)!

Add a DIY subwoofer to extend the bass down to 20Hz. and the bass sounds AWFUL -- a big frequency peak and slow room decay at 40-55Hz. It does not matter that my subwoofer is a low Qtc sealed enclosure design (or if it was a ported design). It would not matter if my subwoofer was the "best" subwoofer money can buy. Room acoustics dominate the bass frequency response and bass sound quality

in my listening room.

Add a $129 Behringer parametric equalizer used as a "notch filter" to cut SPL at those room resonance frequencies that cause frequency response peaks at my listening position ... and the bass sound good ... and fast

(frequency response deviations were reduced from +/-9dB to +/-4.5dB with just two bands of equalization -- measured from my listening position using 1/6 octave sine wave tones).

The room resonances still exist after equalization but I've significantly reduced their effects at my listening position (and for a seat next to my listening seat ...

but not for a couch about six feet away).

Bass traps are a better solution than equalization because they address the actual problem (room reflections) while equalization addresses only the symptoms at a specific listening position ... but you need a lot of bass traps, they are big and ugly, and unless this is a dedicated listening room, a room full of bass traps has the lowest

S(pouse) A(pproval) F(actor) of any audio component

I know of.

Barry Barnes · Apr 18, 2002

Musical, pfft. This term is getting really old.

Please. The fact is, a subwoofer is a speaker. One brand of subwoofer sounds as different as night and day from another. If you can't tell the difference from one to the other then why bother with this hobby? Musicality is what it's all about baby... I suppose some might say that all speakers with a 20Hz to 20 Mhz range sound approximately the same and they are really getting sick of all of us "audiophiles" comparing the sound of B&W to Bose.

Click to expand...

Richard Greene · Apr 18, 2002

Barry:

Concerning bass quality, rather than quantity:

The listening room dominates the sound quality of subwoofers (frequencies under 100Hz.) ao much that the frequency response of most subwoofers is similar if they playing the same song at the same volume, and:

(1) They are in the same location in the same room

(2) The measuring instrument is in the same location

Room bass resonances and other listening room reverberations obscure differences so that it will be difficult, if not impossible, to determine if the subwoofer uses a 12" driver or 15" driver,

whether it is sealed or ported with a low port tuning frequency, or whether the subwoofer was expensive or moderately priced.

Comparisons of two subwoofers auditioned in two different rooms are almost meaningless ... and the bass sound quality heard at an audio dealer may have little correlation with the bass sound quality heard in your own room.

If you want to hear differences among subwoofers the best place to listen is in an anechoic chamber, outdoors or

in a listening room filled with bass traps. As an alternative parametric equalization can be used to reduce the effects of room resonances at a single listening position.

The reason we DIY sub builders measure our subs with microphones 1/2 inch from the driver (or outdoors) is that measurements from the listening position tell us more about listening room acoustics than about our subwoofer's

performance.

Barry Barnes · Apr 18, 2002

Comparisons of two subwoofers auditioned in two different rooms are almost meaningless ... and the bass sound quality heard at an audio dealer may have little correlation with the bass sound quality heard in your own room.

That goes without saying and is true for all speakers, not just subwoofers. What I object to is the implication that Subwoofers don't have a musical quality to them. That they all sound the same as long as they measure the same. Now I'm as big an SVS fan as the next guy, but I don't agree with trying to shut someone down who may not like the way they sound musically by implying that it isn't a factor. Of course it's a factor. It's why we are all here...

Click to expand...

Frank_S · Apr 18, 2002

Lewis asked;
I'm curious how did you end up with that xo point,also what order filter do you use on both HP, LP?
Lewis, I originally used test tones and my RS meter to try to obtain the flattest response from my main speakers(N804) without the sub turned on. I noticed a hole around 63hz. The Rel's low pass crossover has 24 semi-tone settings starting at 22hz.
I just found 22hz offered the flattest response, within 3db was as good as I could get. I tried moving the sub around to different locations and finally ended up placing it close to my right main 2/3 along the side wall. My system has never sounded better. Imaging and busy bass lines are very defined and pleasing to my ears.

IF you would like more info on the Rel, check this out:
www.sumikoaudio.com/storm.htm

ling_w · Apr 18, 2002

Bass traps are a better solution than equalization because they address the actual problem (room reflections) while equalization addresses only the symptoms at a specific listening position ... but you need a lot of bass traps, they are big and ugly, and unless this is a dedicated listening room, a room full of bass traps has the lowest
S(pouse) A(pproval) F(actor) of any audio component

What's so ugly about them? Cover them in velvet and your friends will think you have a room full of SVS. And if you get the 20" version, they will thing you got that yet to be released SVS.
A wall of SVS would look like this, no?
http://www.acousticsciences.com/surround/02.htm

Click to expand...

Barry Barnes · Apr 18, 2002

My Wife would have a coronary! Next time she pisses me off, I'm gonna go buy a bunch of these things and put them in our living room!

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