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The truth revealed (formerly "Now an entire subplot of OCEANS ELEVEN is being cut! ")


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#1 of 50 Matt_Stevens

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Posted September 21 2001 - 02:00 PM

(MODERATOR'S NOTE on 5/10/02: This thread was started shortly after September 11, based partly on a news report about possible revisions to Ocean's 11. Much of the discussion is badly out of date now that the film has been released to theaters and on DVD. For a discussion of what changes were eventually made, please skip to the second page of the thread, near the end.)

And it's a big part of the film. Why don't they just delay the film until next Summer instead?
http://us.imdb.com/PeopleNews/

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#2 of 50 SteveGon

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Posted September 21 2001 - 06:12 PM

Matt, that link doesn't seem to be working. Anyway, I have to agree that things are getting a bit out of hand...

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#3 of 50 Michael Reuben

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Posted September 21 2001 - 06:50 PM

Here's the story in its entirety:

Quote:
George Clooney is desperately having to make adjustments to one of Hollywood's most anticipated movies, Ocean's Eleven - after a bomb scene was deemed inappropriate. The film, which stars Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts and Matt Damon, is being produced by Clooney and directed by Steven Soderbergh. In the film, about a group of professional thieves, the Las Vegas casino New York, New York is blown up. A source on the set says, "After the terrorist attacks in New York, they are having to cut the whole scene out of the movie. The film is due out in December but I'm not sure if they are going to have to delay it's release."

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#4 of 50 Paul_D

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Posted September 21 2001 - 09:47 PM

This is the first piece of film related news concerning the effect of the terrorist attacks that has really pissed me off. I think its totally appropriate to postpone or even cut (in extreme circumstances only - i.e. collateral damage, when the links sound very strong) a film, set for release days or at the most weeks after the event, that makes DIRECT reference to terrorist explosions, but to HACK a film released in 3 months time, only because there is an explosion at a Las Vegas hotel, named after a city where the terrorist attacks takes place is ABSURD.

As far as I'm concerned this is thefilm I'm most eagerly anticipating - way ahead of episode 2, harry potter, LOTR etc.

This move is FAR TOO REACTIONARY, and totally inappropriate!
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#5 of 50 Edwin Pereyra

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Posted September 22 2001 - 02:21 AM

For me what IS reactionary are people overreacting and calling these films as "hacks" even before they are released. These films are still work in progress and the filmmakers can do whatever they please up until the last minute.

I'll reserve judgment until I see the final product.

~Edwin

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#6 of 50 Adam Lenhardt

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Posted September 22 2001 - 02:35 AM

Quote:
These films are still work in progress and the filmmakers can do whatever they please up until the last minute.
I'd very much agreat with you if it was the filmmakers doing this as part of their normal editting process. But from the sound of things, PC Hollywood is demanding that the filmmakers make these cuts, either to prevent political backlash or to ensure continued ticket sales.

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#7 of 50 Edwin Pereyra

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Posted September 22 2001 - 02:44 AM

Quote:
PC Hollywood is demanding that the filmmakers make these cuts

PC or not, filmmakers have been making cuts to their movies as a result of test audiences' screenings.

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#8 of 50 Paul_D

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Posted September 22 2001 - 02:44 AM

I think its impossible to reserve judgement of the cuts if you've never seen the film in its original, pre-terrorist form. Don't get me wrong I think it is a totally responsible, sensitive thiing to do, to edit/postpone movies to avoid causing audience distress, but this can easily be taken too far, and I think this (as reported) is a clear example of taking it too far.

You need to ask these questions to get to the root of the problem.

Will Ocean's 11, after these cuts? Almost definately, but certainly not as good as it could have been.

Will it be the original vision? No.

Is compromising this vision necessary? NO.

Also, I refer to it as a hack, because the final film will be a product of circumstances outside of the director's control, which needed and shouldn't have any bearing on his final version. Thus an unjust actering of HIS film.
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#9 of 50 Matt_Stevens

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Posted September 22 2001 - 02:56 AM

Quote:
These films are still work in progress and the filmmakers can do whatever they please up until the last minute.

OCEANS ELEVEN was done. There was only minor editing left to do, and of course the final sound mix. The sequence in question was and is a MAJOR portion of the film. It's like removing all the murders from the end of GODFATHER 2.

I talked with two people who saw this film and they cannot believe this is happening and say the film will be greatly impacted by this BS PC crap. Posted Image

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#10 of 50 Allen Hirsch

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Posted September 22 2001 - 04:53 AM

I would think Soderbergh would have enough "clout" to insist that that subplot stay in, and make the suits just hold off releasing the movie for another few months. That is, IF he felt the editing out of that subplot compromised the vision or integrity of the movie.

I think Hollywood in general is going overboard, but I'll reserve judgement on OE until I see it.

Smetimes, the deleted scenes on SE DVDs give us an inkling of MAJOR subplots dropped, etc. - yet, the same movie often "works" as well or better without the deleted stuff. In any event, who's to say what the artist's "original vision" was - unless there's a director's cut later that is materially different from the first studio release. It's almost always a collaborative effort in the end.
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#11 of 50 Scott Weinberg

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Posted September 24 2001 - 05:10 PM

And here I thought nobody would ever find the way to "cure" movie violence.

I'd agree that if a filmmaker chooses to re-shape his film before release, that's his right.

But to cut a huge sequence out of a completed film due to some overly-sensitive social pressures is the exact opposite of art.

As always, IMO.

Also, here's a very cool related piece from chud.com:

http://www.chud.com/...sept24pins.php3


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[Edited last by Scott Weinberg on September 25, 2001 at 12:27 AM]

#12 of 50 Wes Ray

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Posted September 26 2001 - 09:23 AM

Thousands of families have loved ones in New York that are still missing, and all most of you seem to care about is if the new Steven (overrated) Soderberg movie will have something cut from it. Simply amazing.

If they leave the footage in, and it does prove to be as bad as they evidently think it is (or else they wouldn't suggest cutting it from a finished film) then most of you same posters would be complaining about how inappropriate it was for Soderberg to cut the footage. It's a catch 22 situation for all involved.

I'm not for censorship at all. There was no reason for Sony to pull the Spiderman teaser. From what I could tell, it looked like a stand-alone teaser, which didn't have anything to do with the film at all (kind of like the early Godzilla teasers). Teasers disappear once the real trailers start showing up. Plus, the Spiderman teaser showed the World Trade Center in an iconic, heroic light.

Releasing a film where New York or even a casino which resembles New York (as New York, New York does) has an explosion or gets destroyed would definitely be insensitive at a time like this. I know this may ruin some of your favorite movies and directors, guys, but that's life. There are things more important than movies.

Personally, I'd rather see the film delayed than cut (because I'm not a big fan of censorship), but if delayed, it would have to be for quite a long, long time. That would cause more bitching and moaning from most of you, so we're back to square one.

If a film rests soley on one major plot point, then the film wasn't that strong to begin with. And as I said before, there are more important things to worry about than Oceans Eleven. I swear, some of you make me flat-out ashamed to be a movie fan.

#13 of 50 cafink

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Posted September 26 2001 - 11:41 AM

Quote:
And as I said before, there are more important things to worry about than Oceans Eleven.

This is a movie forum, not a world issues forum. We talk about movies here. It's what the forum was created for. If movies aren't important to you, why are you here right now?
 

 


#14 of 50 Edwin Pereyra

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Posted September 26 2001 - 12:28 PM

Quote:
But to cut a huge sequence out of a completed film due to some overly-sensitive social pressures is the exact opposite of art.

Forget about social pressures. Maybe the filmmakers are just being sensitive because they knew people who lost lives in this tragic incident.

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#15 of 50 Dawn_R

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Posted September 27 2001 - 07:12 AM

I was horrified when I first heard rumours of this and hoped I was vastly mistaken, that it *was* only an unfounded rumour at most. What's deeply troubling me *now* is that it appears they're in fact going ahead with making these cuts to the film - reacting blindly, I think, supremely overreacting and truly not stopping to consider the other options they *do* have. In other words, like others have said, I don't think it's necessary to compromise and alter "Ocean's 11" this severely. I can understand the need to be sensitive and aware of peoples' feelings in the aftermath of this tragedy - *believe* me, I understand, for there are some films I'm still not able to watch and I feel this strange twinging ache in my heart when I see travel books for NYC with the Towers....or a program with flyby shots or dissolve sequences with the Towers....it *still* catches me off-guard, even now, and thus I wholly understand the need to be sensitive of everyone's feelings, to give us the time we need to heal....time *away*, I guess that's it. Yet by the same token, is it really all that necessary for them to cut that sequence out of "Ocean's 11"? They could *delay* the release date, as has been suggested....heck, the movie hasn't been scheduled to come out until December anyway, nearly three full months to go as it *is*. Even though this is the *one* film I've been angling for and eagerly anticipating for *many* months now, and....well, aside from "Harry Potter", for me this is it Posted Image....well, all the same I would gladly, readily wait until, say, January of next year, even February or *March* if it meant that "Ocean's 11" need not be altered in *any* way. That's a compromising of the original vision, deliberate alterations that despite the care and sensitivity intended, I'm not sure that they may be all that warranted....and if that means waiting for the film so we can see it in its true, original form, then fine. I'll do that only so long as these cuts need not *happen*!

Another thing I suppose they could do is place a small message of acknowledgement either before or after the film - say, before the opening credits roll, just as an example - basically saying that the film was shot well before the tragedies at the Towers, and that no offense or pain is meant by keeping mention of that New York, New York casino explosion in, or anything of that nature....and that the events of the film are just that, they're part of the story, and are not intended to harm anyone at all. Would that not be sufficient? At the very least, I think we would find it a *lot* more tolerable than the notion of - of *cutting* out such a hefty scene from the film....egads, I'm speechless with frustration and dread at the mere thought of it.

One more thing I've been given to wonder - do you think there would be any hope or merit in us putting forth another petition (I hope they haven't been overused since they *have* seemed to work admirably in the past) to the filmmakers, the studios or whoever....getting this issue out in the open to ET or AH or news sites or the like, whoever would listen....and to ask them to please, *please* reconsider their decision, because while we *do* understand and agree with the need to be sympathetic and sensitive to peoples' feelings at this time - still I *cannot* believe that people would want to see this film so drastically altered because of it. I agree it's a difficult, chancy line to walk, but it just seems like they're not making the right, the best decision here for us all, much less *creatively* to boot....and so don't we have to make our feelings felt, our voices known and heard loud and clear on this issue? I honestly think if we did it....they would listen. And I'd just like to say right here that in the sole interests of saving my long-awaited and *most* precious "Ocean's 11" - I am *all* for it!


In understanding and hope,


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#16 of 50 Paul_D

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Posted September 28 2001 - 01:42 AM

Quote:
Thousands of families have loved ones in New York that are still missing, and all most of you seem to care about is if the new Steven (overrated) Soderberg movie will have something cut from it. Simply amazing...... I know this may ruin some of your favorite movies and directors, guys, but that's life...... I swear, some of you make me flat-out ashamed to be a movie fan.

This is without a shadow of a doubt, the most inflamatory, ignorant post I have ever read. Feeling genuine sympathy and sorrow for the losses of all those families is one thing, but using that sorrow as a mask of righteousness so that you can cut down other HTF members for expressing genuine, relevant points about how the treatment of this tragedy has (in some cases) gone too far, is downright contemptable, and something YOU should be ashamed of. The message reads as if you look down on anyone unless their post carries a message of sympathy, although sympathy for the families is something that EVERY HTF member feels!

The complaints in this thread ARE NOT that all censorship is bad and that filmmakers should not need to alter their films in a bid to remain sensitive to the social climate of the time, but that in extreme cases such as this, such changes are inappropriate because they (in a sense) let the terrorists win, by affecting our lives in simple unnecessary ways.

Also it seems aparent that you wouldn't be so amazed at these posts if you didn't think Soderbergh was overrated - something that undercuts the (feeble) points you have made. If this isn't the case as you will most probably exclaim, then why did you write it in the first place?

I'm as appalled at these events and as sorry for the people who have suffered as a consequence as everyone else, but there is a severe lack of thought from people such as this poster.

Disagree... fine. Insult and preach.... not fine.

[Edited last by Paul Dalmaine on October 01, 2001 at 08:20 AM]
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#17 of 50 Glenn Overholt

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Posted September 28 2001 - 02:37 AM

I was going to skip this, but it finally got to me. I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

It is almost funny because as I see it, this 'subplot' should have never have been there in the first place. It wasn't in the original, and although I realize that they can and do change stuff for remakes, I feel that it only shows that Hollywood has to put more violent scenes in, just to satify today's audience. They should be ashamed at that.

'Jackel' was a good remake, even if it was almost completely different. Ocean's 11 does not need any explosions of any kind. One of the reasons I really liked it in the first place was that no one got hurt, (If I remember correctly), and the only explosion needed was for downing the power line.

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#18 of 50 Matt_Stevens

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Posted September 30 2001 - 09:17 AM

The storlyline of the original is barely even in the remake. The new version just took the basic concept and ran with it. The explosion is not just some dumb subplot thrown in for kicks. It's an essential part of the film.

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#19 of 50 Adam Lenhardt

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Posted September 30 2001 - 09:31 AM

Quote:
Thousands of families have loved ones in New York that are still missing, and all most of you seem to care about is if the new Steven (overrated) Soderberg movie will have something cut from it. Simply amazing.
How long must we wait until on-topic discussion of studio editting is no longer insensitive? Some of us are dealing with our grief and trying to move on. And part of moving on is our love for movies. Why should we be considered insensitive for voicing concern about edits which will most probably hurt (and most certainly date) films which we've been looking forward to?

The families and friends of those who have lost their lives in this trajedy and in my prayers. Yet I'm not going to collapse in a heap of grief and dispair. We have been spared our lives, and we have a duty to make the most of them. And for me, debating about movies is part of that. And I'm a firm believer than movies shouldn't be editted based on the grief/glory of the times.

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#20 of 50 Seth Paxton

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Posted September 30 2001 - 03:34 PM

Quote:
then most of you same posters
Look, this is getting to be a HUGE pet peeve of mine, enough to consider complaining formally to the HTF staff.

There is a big difference between 2 DIFFERENT GROUPS of people at HTF complaining about opposite sides of a subject, which naturally happens a lot, and the same people being hypocrites.

For some reason it seems popular to assume this "you say that now, but later you will be saying the opposite" attitude. It simply is much more rare than any of you think. Instead what happens is that group A complains about something now, it gets changed, and then group B complains about the change.

There is NO good reason to assume that anyone in this thread that is complaining about the cuts made to O11 would later also complain about the scenes when they are put back in.

Just like the people that want DTS ARE NOT the same people that complain when DTS goes in and extras get bumped out.

Just like the people that want burned-in subtitles ARE NOT the same people that are complaining about subtitles being burned-in.

The simple fact of the matter is that we have many members and you will see very polar views on any subject around here, but that does not mean that these groups are made of the same HTF members.

It might be fair to say "if they don't cut out that subplot in O11, then a bunch of different HTF members will be here complaining that it was left in". And while that may be true, it's rather a moot point in any debate with those advocating that no editing be done to O11.

If you want to debate with someone's contradictions, then I urge you to provide some black and white examples (quotes) rather than rely on speculation. It is not a good method of debating, nor is it productive either in making a point or creating a friendly atmosphere for open debate.

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